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<blockquote data-quote="Diamabel" data-source="post: 6522335" data-attributes="member: 6788929">A few thoughts.The numbers have not been increased arbitrarily- the increases you see in 5th compared to AD&amp;D make more numbers meaningful, example:Strength score- in AD&amp;D, strength had little meaning unless you had a very high or very low score. You needed a score of 16 to receive a single +0/+1 bonus, or a 7 or less to get a penalty.So.. any strength score between 8 and 15- where the bulk of stats will fall, are identical.(in combat)&nbsp;&nbsp; In addition, 18(x) was *substantially* more powerful than 17, especially on the higher end.In 5th edition, you get -1 at 8-9, 0 at 10-11(10.5 being the average human score) and +1 at 12-13, with each increment of 2 giving +1 or -1 accordingly. There is relevant difference every 2 stat points.Now compare the hit/damage bonuses between a maximum strength human fighter:AD&amp;D: 18(00)str&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3/+65th: 20 str&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +5/+5Not all that different at the top end, but VASTLY different with an average score.Having meaningful stat lines and slightly more bonuses increase the average damage... but they also somewhat normalize the damage, hitpoints, etc.You won't end up with 7 hitpoint ogres and 40 hitpoint ogres. &quot;But variance is good!&quot; - to a point.. Ogres as weak(hp wise) as an orc? nah.I don't believe this to be a case of number creep (3rd would be much of a culprit in that), but of normalization, meaningful choice and character growth.. and importantly, design space.You make a strange comparison regarding &quot;average damage&quot;. Average damage of *what*? a kobold? an ogre? a dragon?There is a sweet spot, in my opinion- How many average hits for an average strength person to kill an average kobold? This is a more important question than what numbers to use.&nbsp; If you can answer with &quot;2 hits with a 1d6 spear, on average&quot; then you could set up the average kobold to have 6 hitpoints. An exceptionally tough kobold might survive one more spear thrust, while a strong fighter could kill the average kobold with a a single hit.Why not smaller numbers? because each number can end up being too large a percentage of the maximum, when you are dealing with whole numbers only. With smaller numbers, you remove meaningful stats.. even if they are above average! because in the context of AD&amp;D, +1 hit and damage vs low hp enemies matters more than it does in 5th... and there is no middle ground.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Diamabel, post: 6522335, member: 6788929"] A few thoughts. The numbers have not been increased arbitrarily- the increases you see in 5th compared to AD&D make more numbers meaningful, example: Strength score- in AD&D, strength had little meaning unless you had a very high or very low score. You needed a score of 16 to receive a single +0/+1 bonus, or a 7 or less to get a penalty. So.. any strength score between 8 and 15- where the bulk of stats will fall, are identical.(in combat) In addition, 18(x) was *substantially* more powerful than 17, especially on the higher end. In 5th edition, you get -1 at 8-9, 0 at 10-11(10.5 being the average human score) and +1 at 12-13, with each increment of 2 giving +1 or -1 accordingly. There is relevant difference every 2 stat points. Now compare the hit/damage bonuses between a maximum strength human fighter: AD&D: 18(00)str +3/+6 5th: 20 str +5/+5 Not all that different at the top end, but VASTLY different with an average score. Having meaningful stat lines and slightly more bonuses increase the average damage... but they also somewhat normalize the damage, hitpoints, etc. You won't end up with 7 hitpoint ogres and 40 hitpoint ogres. "But variance is good!" - to a point.. Ogres as weak(hp wise) as an orc? nah. I don't believe this to be a case of number creep (3rd would be much of a culprit in that), but of normalization, meaningful choice and character growth.. and importantly, design space. You make a strange comparison regarding "average damage". Average damage of *what*? a kobold? an ogre? a dragon? There is a sweet spot, in my opinion- How many average hits for an average strength person to kill an average kobold? This is a more important question than what numbers to use. If you can answer with "2 hits with a 1d6 spear, on average" then you could set up the average kobold to have 6 hitpoints. An exceptionally tough kobold might survive one more spear thrust, while a strong fighter could kill the average kobold with a a single hit. Why not smaller numbers? because each number can end up being too large a percentage of the maximum, when you are dealing with whole numbers only. With smaller numbers, you remove meaningful stats.. even if they are above average! because in the context of AD&D, +1 hit and damage vs low hp enemies matters more than it does in 5th... and there is no middle ground. [/QUOTE]

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