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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9097878" data-attributes="member: 71699">I'd like to dig into that definition to expose some contradictionsWhat is the game world of Roulette? Roughly, it's made up of a mechanism for choosing a random integer 0-36, and cells with properties including triggering integers and multipliers on their contents to pay out when triggered. Additionally, there are tokens that can be placed into cells (as their contents) with values to be multiplied. Players as agents in this game world are afforded a basic move, which is to take tokens from a stash and put them into cells. The cell rules for pay outs recognise token ownership according to the stash they came from. Finally, there is a controlling scheduler that knows to run the randomising mechanism at periodic intervals, with an alert to players and closing of cells to further contents. (That's a brief overview written in just a few minutes: I could no doubt tighten it up if necessary.)What is a "significant" player-controlled change in this rather sparse game world? It's to move tokens from a stash into a cell. That's it.Again, this illustrates the distinction between general-agency and ludic-agency. I can certainly say that according to my general sense of agency I feel more with say Blackjack than Roulettte. That's down to cultural lenses, psychological predispositions, nurture, norms, etc. I might barely notice the vast amount of agency I've given up in order to even play Blackjack. It speaks to the player-duality, spoken of by Sicart (in the context of videogames), where they remain a member of their culture - separated from game - even while making themselves subject to game.When comparing across games though, it's as you described incoherent, empty and invalid because games are constituted of suspensions of agency. Pursuing your analogy, we don't say that cats are more alive than mice, just because cats are made up of more living cells.</blockquote>

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