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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 9097912" data-attributes="member: 6795602">I'm glad you can agree some comparisons across games are meaningless.  That's a great starting point.  So maybe start by asking 'why is it meaningless to compare numerical scores across sports'?  I think the answer is that numerical scores are not independent of the games being compared.  What other attributes aren't independent of the games being compared?  IMO - Most!  What are some examples of independent attributes - the facts that both games have positions, that a numerical score is kept, that there are referees that often have to make judgement calls around whether something is a foul, etc.One of the first steps to a good comparison is being able to identify the attributes that are meaningful to compare.  I'm not sure you've carefully addressed that step.  It seems to me more like you are assuming agency can be meaningfully compared across RPGs and then you compare agency across RPGs and start drawing conclusions from that comparison.  But if that premise is flawed then the conclusion doesn't follow.I have no problem with those questions on their own.  Though they are quite a bit more complex and nuanced than they first appear.  I'd suggest their relationship to agency then is even more complex and nuanced and that the oversimplication of these questions often leads us astray.I don't have time to delve into them all right now.  But i'll start with the first as an example, 'Who sets the goals of play?'  Traditionally that has been the group by agreeing to play a particular module, or a particular adventure, or a particular campaign, etc.  Except, oftentimes adventures or campaigns give players freedom to set goals during play as well.  Except oftentimes, players goals change from moment to moment in play and even diverge from one another - 'i'm bored let's force some action', 'i want my pc to live', 'i want to do something entertaining to the group', 'i want to take the game really seriously right now', etc.  Or if talking more long term goals, they can quickly change as well as players either realize the goal is extremely difficult or extremely easy, or something new gets introduced in play that they make a goal around, etc.</blockquote>

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