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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9098346" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Is it though?&nbsp; For an RPG?A player in any sport has zero agency.&nbsp; Other then Reality, there are a ton of GMs with a ton of Rules telling a player what they can and can't do.&nbsp; Take Football.&nbsp; The &quot;Dragon&quot; team has the ball..and only have two choices: run or throw the ball.&nbsp; Sure they can make a &quot;play&quot; all they want and dance around the field: but it utterly does not matter at all what they do.&nbsp; No matter what in a couple seconds the &quot;round&quot; will be over...and more then likely no points are scored.&nbsp; So a player in sports has no choice but to just play the game by both the rules and the harsh oversight of the people in charge.&nbsp; &nbsp;Yes.Unless your running a Simple, Silly, Wacky, Casual or Cartoon type game no single PC can change The Plot.&nbsp; It does.....this comes back Full Circle to just Players Complaining.&nbsp; Lets take the most simple Railroad Plot ever: Giant Rats in the Cellar.&nbsp; The PCs are hired by an NPC to &quot;get rid of the giant rats in the cellar&quot;.&nbsp; This simple adventure is the whole game world: The PCs can do NOTHING else other then &quot;get rid of the giant rats in the cellar&quot;.&nbsp; It's a railroad.Once in a while some players might come up with something to get rid of the rats while staying fr away from the cellar......but the other 99.9% of games the PC MUST go to the cellar and MUST directly deal with the giant rats.&nbsp; And as 75% of RPGs are all about combat, 99.9% of the games will be about killing the giant rats.&nbsp; But sure in that .1% of games where you have a bard with a pipe, a vermin druid, a gnome animal friend and a ratfolk princess, THAT group might get rid of the rats in a peaceful way.The players are &quot;free&quot; to &quot;try&quot; anything....with in the game reality and the limits of their PCs.&nbsp; Like the players might think of the &quot;clever&quot; idea to pour a bunch of water in the cellar and drive the rats out.&nbsp; And sure it might work.&nbsp; Except the PCs have no way of getting &quot;tons of water&quot; into the cellar.&nbsp; This is where the cries of &quot;player agency&quot; are whined by the players.&nbsp; They gather all the wagons in town and want to fill them with water from the river, roll them across the land, and then dump the water into the cellar.&nbsp; For any DM that is not a fan of the players/characters or with common sense...this would be impossible.&nbsp; BUT as soon as the DM says &quot;um...the water leaks out of the wagon as the wagon is not sealed and waterproof&quot; the players will whine and cry that they have no agency in the game and how the DM is &quot;just making old wooden wagons leak water&quot; to directly mess with them.&nbsp; Though it's not impossible to seal up a wagon to hold water...if you have the supplies to do so.&nbsp; Or even build a water tank into each wagon.&nbsp; But that sure is going to be a lot harder and take a lot longer then just the PCs going over to the cellar and killing the giant rats.&nbsp; Right, the plot of the adventure moves forward no matter what the PCs do.&nbsp; It's Linear Momentum....or &quot;History&quot;.&nbsp; Though a player trying to derail or stop the plot is just being a jerk too.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9098346, member: 6684958"] Is it though? For an RPG? A player in any sport has zero agency. Other then Reality, there are a ton of GMs with a ton of Rules telling a player what they can and can't do. Take Football. The "Dragon" team has the ball..and only have two choices: run or throw the ball. Sure they can make a "play" all they want and dance around the field: but it utterly does not matter at all what they do. No matter what in a couple seconds the "round" will be over...and more then likely no points are scored. So a player in sports has no choice but to just play the game by both the rules and the harsh oversight of the people in charge. Yes. Unless your running a Simple, Silly, Wacky, Casual or Cartoon type game no single PC can change The Plot. It does.....this comes back Full Circle to just Players Complaining. Lets take the most simple Railroad Plot ever: Giant Rats in the Cellar. The PCs are hired by an NPC to "get rid of the giant rats in the cellar". This simple adventure is the whole game world: The PCs can do NOTHING else other then "get rid of the giant rats in the cellar". It's a railroad. Once in a while some players might come up with something to get rid of the rats while staying fr away from the cellar......but the other 99.9% of games the PC MUST go to the cellar and MUST directly deal with the giant rats. And as 75% of RPGs are all about combat, 99.9% of the games will be about killing the giant rats. But sure in that .1% of games where you have a bard with a pipe, a vermin druid, a gnome animal friend and a ratfolk princess, THAT group might get rid of the rats in a peaceful way. The players are "free" to "try" anything....with in the game reality and the limits of their PCs. Like the players might think of the "clever" idea to pour a bunch of water in the cellar and drive the rats out. And sure it might work. Except the PCs have no way of getting "tons of water" into the cellar. This is where the cries of "player agency" are whined by the players. They gather all the wagons in town and want to fill them with water from the river, roll them across the land, and then dump the water into the cellar. For any DM that is not a fan of the players/characters or with common sense...this would be impossible. BUT as soon as the DM says "um...the water leaks out of the wagon as the wagon is not sealed and waterproof" the players will whine and cry that they have no agency in the game and how the DM is "just making old wooden wagons leak water" to directly mess with them. Though it's not impossible to seal up a wagon to hold water...if you have the supplies to do so. Or even build a water tank into each wagon. But that sure is going to be a lot harder and take a lot longer then just the PCs going over to the cellar and killing the giant rats. Right, the plot of the adventure moves forward no matter what the PCs do. It's Linear Momentum....or "History". Though a player trying to derail or stop the plot is just being a jerk too. [/QUOTE]

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