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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9107837" data-attributes="member: 7023840">Frogreaver-The conversation literally doesn't matter. Look, this is nothing more than hobbyists trying to elevate their playing preferences by borrowing terms from other fields.There are people who have taken a serious look at this. For example, there have been empirical studies looking at how players negotiate these power structures in RPGs; these usually divide into two concepts, agency and authority.For agency, you don't see the term "player agency," but instead would often see "character agency" (what a character is capable of) and "participant agency" (if a character's action have the desired effect of the player).What is happening is that people are deliberately co-mingling the types of agency and the types of authority that are available. Agency is viewed as how the game participants should negotiate inputs into the game, while authority is how participants resolve the disputes. So arguing that people have agency because there is a different method of distributing authority ... well, that's not how it's being done. But that would require people to actually be interested in what academics are looking at, as opposed to putting a pseudo-academic sheen on their personal preferences.So if people really wanted to be bothered to have a real conversation about this, as opposed to another version of ¿Quien Es Mas Macho?, they might actually look at what .... um ... actual sociologists have written about this, as opposed to continue the usual hobbyist debates.But they aren't.I've noticed. One more try.Except that's not how it works. You never can truly peer into the other person's head. Your feelings are just that- subjective. What, you can tell me how many kilo-luvums you feel, and compare that to someone else's love?Or, put another way, let's say the person was lying to you, but you broke up before you found out, and then the two of you moved on. And you never found out. Same love, right? Same subjective feeling.You keep trying to assert that there is some objective measurement, so I will return to the original point that you don't understand. If you are correct, then make it simple for the dummy that I am. Explain to me, using concrete numbers, how you have measured the player agency in various games, and how one game has MORE than another. If you cannot, then we can effectively end the conversation. Good?</blockquote>

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