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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9109861" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Maybe the words don't display right on my screen:&nbsp; All I'm seeing is &quot;here are some SUPER vague rules&quot; and &quot;it's the GM job to make the call on things&quot;.&nbsp; What do you see?&nbsp; Ok, again well will say &quot;You say you have never talked about any RPG&quot;, as you must always bring that up.But.....ok, you might notice this is a direct quite FROM YOU.&nbsp; You Typed it and you posted it.&nbsp; Here, I will post it, again:So...ok, we have established you are not talking about an &quot;RPG&quot;.&nbsp; But your talking about something, right?&nbsp; Well, THAT is what I'm replying too.A &quot;perfect&quot; rule....not one from any RPG though...right?&nbsp; Just more a vague rule idea you thought of?But, ok, to YET AGAIN, respond to what you typed.&nbsp; So the GM must &quot;have regard for the players goals for their PC&quot;?&nbsp; Well, my first reaction is there ANYTHING of the DMs that the player must &quot;have regard for the DMs goals for the game?&quot;.&nbsp; If not why not?&nbsp; Why does the player get to have the GM give them &quot;special regard&quot;.....and YET the player does not have to return that to the GM?&nbsp; Why would you support game play with such lopsided power?And this STILL, circles back to my original question:&nbsp; So how does this work if the GM and player are not so perfectly in sync with each other that they always think and say the same things?&nbsp;&nbsp; I did.&nbsp; I guess you want me to go back and find them and take them apart piece by piece before you will give an answer?So, I guess here you are talking about a player, in character, learning what another player is imagining about their player.&nbsp; So player A can't tell Player B what Character B is thinking.Ok, sounds good.But you WOULD say that Player A can do that for any and every NPC.....right?&nbsp; So this bring back my question of why even have a GM in the game is the players will just &quot;exercise agency over the content&quot;?&nbsp; Right...this is how normal people expect to get gifts: and have it be a surprise.Though for the Player Demanding Agency....they are THIS type of person:&nbsp; &quot;Here is my Offical Only Things You May Buy ME for MY Birthday List.&nbsp; Please select the item you WILL buy for me and cross it off the list.&nbsp; &quot;I guess your only talking about the GM here?&nbsp; The game only has two types: the player(s) and the GM.&nbsp; Someone has to be in control.&nbsp; Some one has to be in the divers seat.If a player can not &quot;just invent&quot; something....then they will always have zero agency though......right?I'd guess you would exclude backgrounds from this statement though, right?&nbsp; Or are backgrounds &quot;ok&quot; as they get GM approval?(Sigh, for those reading who need it the following example is generic and not from any offical published RPG)But...as has been said....player agency is when the adds something to the game independent of the GM.&nbsp; So a player has a character walk into town and say &quot;I got to the alchemist shop&quot;.&nbsp; Note the player does NOT ask the DM if there is an alchemist shop in town, they just state they go there.&nbsp; Just because the GM agees and rolls out the red carpet does NOT mean the player did not just invent the 'something'.....Oh...look game examples!So, when a player &quot;determines&quot; the &quot;difficulty&quot; they are NOT &quot;just making stuff up&quot;, right?&nbsp; This really is a classic example:&nbsp;&nbsp; A typical traditional GM will often say &quot;no sorry all your allies are not 'just' right there waiting around to help you like sad video game characters&quot; because the GM wants to play the game with just the PCs, not &quot;the PCs and the whole NPC world&quot;.&nbsp; The player on the other hand will often say &quot;oh, all my allies are in town at a...oh...convention...and they are happy to help&quot; as the self insert self serving player will ALWAYS want to get free help if the can swindle it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9109861, member: 6684958"] Maybe the words don't display right on my screen: All I'm seeing is "here are some SUPER vague rules" and "it's the GM job to make the call on things". What do you see? Ok, again well will say "You say you have never talked about any RPG", as you must always bring that up. But.....ok, you might notice this is a direct quite FROM YOU. You Typed it and you posted it. Here, I will post it, again: So...ok, we have established you are not talking about an "RPG". But your talking about something, right? Well, THAT is what I'm replying too. A "perfect" rule....not one from any RPG though...right? Just more a vague rule idea you thought of? But, ok, to YET AGAIN, respond to what you typed. So the GM must "have regard for the players goals for their PC"? Well, my first reaction is there ANYTHING of the DMs that the player must "have regard for the DMs goals for the game?". If not why not? Why does the player get to have the GM give them "special regard".....and YET the player does not have to return that to the GM? Why would you support game play with such lopsided power? And this STILL, circles back to my original question: So how does this work if the GM and player are not so perfectly in sync with each other that they always think and say the same things? I did. I guess you want me to go back and find them and take them apart piece by piece before you will give an answer? So, I guess here you are talking about a player, in character, learning what another player is imagining about their player. So player A can't tell Player B what Character B is thinking. Ok, sounds good. But you WOULD say that Player A can do that for any and every NPC.....right? So this bring back my question of why even have a GM in the game is the players will just "exercise agency over the content"? Right...this is how normal people expect to get gifts: and have it be a surprise. Though for the Player Demanding Agency....they are THIS type of person: "Here is my Offical Only Things You May Buy ME for MY Birthday List. Please select the item you WILL buy for me and cross it off the list. " I guess your only talking about the GM here? The game only has two types: the player(s) and the GM. Someone has to be in control. Some one has to be in the divers seat. If a player can not "just invent" something....then they will always have zero agency though......right? I'd guess you would exclude backgrounds from this statement though, right? Or are backgrounds "ok" as they get GM approval? (Sigh, for those reading who need it the following example is generic and not from any offical published RPG) But...as has been said....player agency is when the adds something to the game independent of the GM. So a player has a character walk into town and say "I got to the alchemist shop". Note the player does NOT ask the DM if there is an alchemist shop in town, they just state they go there. Just because the GM agees and rolls out the red carpet does NOT mean the player did not just invent the 'something'..... Oh...look game examples! So, when a player "determines" the "difficulty" they are NOT "just making stuff up", right? This really is a classic example: A typical traditional GM will often say "no sorry all your allies are not 'just' right there waiting around to help you like sad video game characters" because the GM wants to play the game with just the PCs, not "the PCs and the whole NPC world". The player on the other hand will often say "oh, all my allies are in town at a...oh...convention...and they are happy to help" as the self insert self serving player will ALWAYS want to get free help if the can swindle it. [/QUOTE]

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