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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9109956" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't actually agree with you about this example. Because the action declaration is I look up my friend. Which is purely a description of what the character does, thinks, hopes, etc.And then that is resolved. The resolution does take as a premise that the player-authored PC belief "My friend might be around here* is true - but that goes to my point about who gets authority over veridical mental states.An example of non-"character agency" would be that the the player gets to establish elements of the shared fiction that are not connected to the player's mental states or actions. For instance, "It would be cool if the Evil Emperor has heard rumours of my PC's exploits, and sends his henchmen to try and capture me!" That is not a declaration of a PC's action, nor a decision about what they think, feel, remember etc. It's straightforward collaborative authorship. And it is not a canonical part of Burning Wheel, Torchbearer, Apocalypse World or Dungeon World!Lots of RPGing involves things "becoming true retroactively".For instance, the first time the PCs meet Orcs, the player of the barbarian decides that their PC has a grudge against this Orc tribe. The GM asks why, and the player says something about their PC's family, village, Orc raiders, etc. I've never heard that described as "altering reality". Mostly I hear that described as roleplaying and characterisation.Or, the GM tells the PCs they arrive in a village, and theirs a blacksmith, a cooper, a tavern etc. A player says "My PC wanders over to the blacksmith to see if they sell iron spikes." The GM now has to decide that - they roll on the random blacksmith inventory chart, or they make a call, or whatever. Is that "altering reality"? Who is doing the altering - the player or the GM?My own view is that the actual nub of the matter was hit upon by [USER=6801845]@Oofta[/USER] in post 177: it's not the fact that it's retroactive - which is commonplace in RPGing - but the fact that it is consequential. My view about this is reinforced by the repeated reference to "I win" buttons, seen most recently from [USER=6701124]@Cadence[/USER].So the reason to avoid player agency is that some players are skilful in the exercise of their agency? To me that doesn't make much sense.</blockquote>

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