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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9111145" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Not that I want to make a point from the other side......BUT....your missing the big word he typed:&nbsp; Joint.&nbsp; I can absolutely say a Railroaded High Illusion game can have Genuine Rich Fiction:&nbsp; It's what I do.But, yes 100%, you can't have &quot;joint&quot; creation....by&nbsp; [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] 's definition of joint with out the Special Scene Framing or&nbsp; Player Game Reality Alteration.Well, that is a bit too broad a statement.&nbsp; Every game has direct player contribution, assuming the player is awake or not on their phone. As said, it is true that a good 75% of all players just want to play: that is they want to sit back and ONLY experience and effect the game play from the single very limited point of view of a single character.Though you can still have joint creation...even with the GM having 99% of the creative power...and the player having 1%.&nbsp; Well, the same way the vast majority of RPGs have been played for the last 50 years.&nbsp; The DM puts in a massive amount of time and work making a game world, a more specific game setting area and an Adventure.&nbsp; And an adventure has a story and a plot, all made by the DM.&nbsp; The player then shows up, doing the bare minimum effort of making a character and play through the adventure.&nbsp; While playing through the adventure, the player has all sorts of very limited freedom within the story, plot and fiction to influence various directions of everything under the DMs watchful gaze.I don't see any real &quot;Player Agency&quot; here....unless your counting &quot;players using illusionium player agency game rules&quot;.&nbsp; And I guess that is what your saying: Player Agency is when a player uses a game rule that sets them &quot;free&quot; from the DM.&nbsp; A bit like tossing out a 'Reverse' card in Uno.I'd never count &quot;using a game rule&quot; as &quot;player agency&quot;....but I guess that I can see that it is &quot;better then nothing&quot; for some players.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9111145, member: 6684958"] Not that I want to make a point from the other side......BUT....your missing the big word he typed: Joint. I can absolutely say a Railroaded High Illusion game can have Genuine Rich Fiction: It's what I do. But, yes 100%, you can't have "joint" creation....by [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] 's definition of joint with out the Special Scene Framing or Player Game Reality Alteration. Well, that is a bit too broad a statement. Every game has direct player contribution, assuming the player is awake or not on their phone. As said, it is true that a good 75% of all players just want to play: that is they want to sit back and ONLY experience and effect the game play from the single very limited point of view of a single character. Though you can still have joint creation...even with the GM having 99% of the creative power...and the player having 1%. Well, the same way the vast majority of RPGs have been played for the last 50 years. The DM puts in a massive amount of time and work making a game world, a more specific game setting area and an Adventure. And an adventure has a story and a plot, all made by the DM. The player then shows up, doing the bare minimum effort of making a character and play through the adventure. While playing through the adventure, the player has all sorts of very limited freedom within the story, plot and fiction to influence various directions of everything under the DMs watchful gaze. I don't see any real "Player Agency" here....unless your counting "players using illusionium player agency game rules". And I guess that is what your saying: Player Agency is when a player uses a game rule that sets them "free" from the DM. A bit like tossing out a 'Reverse' card in Uno. I'd never count "using a game rule" as "player agency"....but I guess that I can see that it is "better then nothing" for some players. [/QUOTE]

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