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What is player agency to you?
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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9116509" data-attributes="member: 6684958"><p>Now, see I could get behind a rule like this. Though D&D has mostly had this as a "suggestion" for years and years. </p><p></p><p>Though even with a rule, you still have the same page problem. Sure if the GM and players are all in step with each other, then the player will only say and suggest things the GM already agrees with. If not, you go back to the same old problem of the player vs GM type things.</p><p></p><p>This is way too far for me. This is forcing a GM to do something: and I'm never going to support that. I get that there are some GMs that just LOVE to be told what to do by the players......but it's not for me. </p><p></p><p>And i think it's bad for the game play. Forcing a GM to do something they don't want to do will often, nearly always, give a bad result. The GM is just not going to put any effort into something they are forced to do: so it will be a luke warm dull scene...at best. And that is on top of the GM simply not making the scene 'count'.</p><p></p><p>I just think of the horror that SO MANY players want to sit down and play an RPG...but the "scene" they desire to play is "getting drunk at the bar" or "shopping". As an iron fisted GM, I smack down hard on things like that. I'll do the "oh rocks fall on your character and trap them till morning so you can go shopping". But the idea the game would have a rule where the player could go "haha, I force you to let my character go shopping". And then we WASTE 1-3 hours of game time while the character goes shopping. And because I don't want to do it, it will be endless "oh...the boot shop has boots for sale" with no engagement or descriptions from me, Just and endless "the store has boots...sigh, are you done shopping yet?"</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yea, some type of rule where a player can just alter game reality and "find" anything with a roll of some dice is wrong for me. This is pure video game stuff...worse a video game using a cheat code. And if you put any kind of restrictions on this rule...well, a normal game without a fan/buddy GM will have the character auto fail 99% of the time. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, so each player hands the GM a huge list of things they Must Have in the game. And, even more so, the GM is forbidden from adding anything to the game that THEY want 100% independent of any player. So the GM just rolls out the Red Carpet and says "here is the game you wished for great player".</p><p></p><p>But your just doing the World Salad again.</p><p></p><p>(Nearly) Every RPG does the "what you call framing". Every time a character has an encounter the GM describes...."frames" it. Nearly every encounter in an RPG starts off with something like "You see two orcs guarding the bridge....what do you do?" or "The noble says he is busy and for you to go away...what do you do?"</p><p></p><p>I can't think of a game where a GM would say "Oh..ok, so you walk up to the two orc guards and the bridge and they attack and beat your character up and arrest your character and throw your character in jail the end. Sure you can play out those events...but it's not just the GM talking.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The difference I'm seeing is the Player May I idea. The GM has to constantly ask the players IF the GM is allowed to do anything. THE player MUST have some big fancy reason to have conflict with the ogre. The game world, common sense, simulated reality or the GMs wishes are all not valid reason for anything to happen in the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm confused on why you keep repeating "resolving things"? What are you talking about happening in an RPG?</p><p></p><p>Say the player has some Big Thing where they want to be a hero and kill the ogre. So the character goes and finds the ogre. And....Ok, nearly EVERY RPG would do some heavy crunch heavy rule based combat here rolling dice where "anything" could happen. You seem to be saying there is a game where the character finds the ogre and the GM just says "you loose, game over". </p><p></p><p></p><p>I can only call it as I have seen it. I guess you might have only ever encountered players with glowing pure hearts of gold who were perfect saints in every way. But...I have encountered a mix of Good, Bad, and Ugly....and more. And yes most players...much like most people...will often be greedy and/or take advantage of anything they can. </p><p></p><p>And more so, for this example, a boring dull all roll play all endless combat player...if given a "make the game interesting rule" will NOT just read the rule that then Suddenly and Spontaneously transform into a hard core deep role playing immersion player and start talking to the king in-character (and to STOP playing their character as just a self insert of themselves too). The boring dull all roll play all endless combat player, who has already asked 10 times in the last minute "can wes fights something now", will NEVER just change in a second and become and amazing player because a rule says so.</p><p></p><p>Well, my point is more specifically on improv or on-the-fly games vs any type of prep. It's said above some games are all about the focus on the PCs, and things are only create at the players whims. So you would NOT create a 100 year timeline EVER.....unless a player specifically asked you to do that. All you can create is single details if asked. If a player asks "who ruled 50 years ago?" you can answer/make up "It was king Bob", but you DON't make up any other details...unless told to by the players. This would leave massive holes in history and everything else. </p><p></p><p>But a simple game would not have 100 years of history. A simple game has little to no history. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again it's more the improv no prep I'm talking about.</p><p></p><p>Would be nice if everyone was like this. However, in reality, it is not true.</p><p></p><p>Well, no, really they are the majority.</p><p></p><p>Take any rule...or law for that matter. If you got rid of it, would nearly everyone STILL do the right thing as you say? The Purge is the perfect example: If murder was legal for 24 hours you would say most...nearly all people nationwide would NOT commit murder(s), right? I'm sure you'd say that 99% of all people would not Purge....right? </p><p></p><p></p><p>I think we established above your game is not Fly-By-Ear or Simple, so no it's not talking about Your individual game style, no matter what game you play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When you posted several times that the players make up things for the game, and then GM just nods and says "ok".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Typically players just "do things"...they don't always make sense.</p><p></p><p>The GM makes it all up on the spot...or has some detailed setting notes to look at. Either way, it comes 100% from the GM.</p><p></p><p>The player just asks what their character sees. The GM has full power, agency and everything else.</p><p></p><p>Well, we can't really tell from your posts. After all they are cherry picked posts.....it's not like you would post stuff that made no sense and was random mish mash. </p><p></p><p>But then we can never know the 'behind the screen' stuff anyway. You can just 'say' you did anything...we'd have no idea if it was true or not. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Not just those three. Your forgetting Simulated Game Flow Reality, Common Sense, Times Arrow and MOST of all GMs whim and will. Everything that is 100% independent from the players and any action they might take.</p><p></p><p>Glad we can agree on something.</p><p></p><p>Wow....sadly...except for my two Super Advanced Die Hard gamers groups......everyone else I play with just barley meets 'they can read, write and roll dice". Except for my two groups, it is always hard for me to find any player who even comes sort of close to myself.....unless I take the player under my wing and mold them into a gamer like myself. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, a full third of players are just disruptive jerks. But plenty of players just are clueless and don't know any better....so they can be helped.</p><p></p><p>Well....this is not the place to talk about how bad of a film Star Wars is....no matter how popular it is.....</p><p></p><p>But, by fiction, it's a VERY low standard.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This right here is IT.</p><p></p><p>Many years ago....people started to play RPGs. SOME of the people playing those games thought the rules were neat and all....but they wanted MORE. They wanted More then a Play-By-The-Rules Roll playing experience. They wanted a simulated game world reality.</p><p></p><p>So they utterly left the rules on the pages in the books and created True Role Playing. That is everything about RPGs that have NOTHING at all what so ever to do with rules at all. The RPG Culture. </p><p></p><p>But when ever your dealing with people, and words....you will get lots of vagueness and interpretation and more. And some people will always Disagree. </p><p></p><p>And a good chunk of those people that disagreed broke off of the main RPG culture to go back to the All Rules Game. The Cricle will be Unbroken.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9116509, member: 6684958"] Now, see I could get behind a rule like this. Though D&D has mostly had this as a "suggestion" for years and years. Though even with a rule, you still have the same page problem. Sure if the GM and players are all in step with each other, then the player will only say and suggest things the GM already agrees with. If not, you go back to the same old problem of the player vs GM type things. This is way too far for me. This is forcing a GM to do something: and I'm never going to support that. I get that there are some GMs that just LOVE to be told what to do by the players......but it's not for me. And i think it's bad for the game play. Forcing a GM to do something they don't want to do will often, nearly always, give a bad result. The GM is just not going to put any effort into something they are forced to do: so it will be a luke warm dull scene...at best. And that is on top of the GM simply not making the scene 'count'. I just think of the horror that SO MANY players want to sit down and play an RPG...but the "scene" they desire to play is "getting drunk at the bar" or "shopping". As an iron fisted GM, I smack down hard on things like that. I'll do the "oh rocks fall on your character and trap them till morning so you can go shopping". But the idea the game would have a rule where the player could go "haha, I force you to let my character go shopping". And then we WASTE 1-3 hours of game time while the character goes shopping. And because I don't want to do it, it will be endless "oh...the boot shop has boots for sale" with no engagement or descriptions from me, Just and endless "the store has boots...sigh, are you done shopping yet?" Yea, some type of rule where a player can just alter game reality and "find" anything with a roll of some dice is wrong for me. This is pure video game stuff...worse a video game using a cheat code. And if you put any kind of restrictions on this rule...well, a normal game without a fan/buddy GM will have the character auto fail 99% of the time. Right, so each player hands the GM a huge list of things they Must Have in the game. And, even more so, the GM is forbidden from adding anything to the game that THEY want 100% independent of any player. So the GM just rolls out the Red Carpet and says "here is the game you wished for great player". But your just doing the World Salad again. (Nearly) Every RPG does the "what you call framing". Every time a character has an encounter the GM describes...."frames" it. Nearly every encounter in an RPG starts off with something like "You see two orcs guarding the bridge....what do you do?" or "The noble says he is busy and for you to go away...what do you do?" I can't think of a game where a GM would say "Oh..ok, so you walk up to the two orc guards and the bridge and they attack and beat your character up and arrest your character and throw your character in jail the end. Sure you can play out those events...but it's not just the GM talking. The difference I'm seeing is the Player May I idea. The GM has to constantly ask the players IF the GM is allowed to do anything. THE player MUST have some big fancy reason to have conflict with the ogre. The game world, common sense, simulated reality or the GMs wishes are all not valid reason for anything to happen in the game. I'm confused on why you keep repeating "resolving things"? What are you talking about happening in an RPG? Say the player has some Big Thing where they want to be a hero and kill the ogre. So the character goes and finds the ogre. And....Ok, nearly EVERY RPG would do some heavy crunch heavy rule based combat here rolling dice where "anything" could happen. You seem to be saying there is a game where the character finds the ogre and the GM just says "you loose, game over". I can only call it as I have seen it. I guess you might have only ever encountered players with glowing pure hearts of gold who were perfect saints in every way. But...I have encountered a mix of Good, Bad, and Ugly....and more. And yes most players...much like most people...will often be greedy and/or take advantage of anything they can. And more so, for this example, a boring dull all roll play all endless combat player...if given a "make the game interesting rule" will NOT just read the rule that then Suddenly and Spontaneously transform into a hard core deep role playing immersion player and start talking to the king in-character (and to STOP playing their character as just a self insert of themselves too). The boring dull all roll play all endless combat player, who has already asked 10 times in the last minute "can wes fights something now", will NEVER just change in a second and become and amazing player because a rule says so. Well, my point is more specifically on improv or on-the-fly games vs any type of prep. It's said above some games are all about the focus on the PCs, and things are only create at the players whims. So you would NOT create a 100 year timeline EVER.....unless a player specifically asked you to do that. All you can create is single details if asked. If a player asks "who ruled 50 years ago?" you can answer/make up "It was king Bob", but you DON't make up any other details...unless told to by the players. This would leave massive holes in history and everything else. But a simple game would not have 100 years of history. A simple game has little to no history. Again it's more the improv no prep I'm talking about. Would be nice if everyone was like this. However, in reality, it is not true. Well, no, really they are the majority. Take any rule...or law for that matter. If you got rid of it, would nearly everyone STILL do the right thing as you say? The Purge is the perfect example: If murder was legal for 24 hours you would say most...nearly all people nationwide would NOT commit murder(s), right? I'm sure you'd say that 99% of all people would not Purge....right? I think we established above your game is not Fly-By-Ear or Simple, so no it's not talking about Your individual game style, no matter what game you play. When you posted several times that the players make up things for the game, and then GM just nods and says "ok". Typically players just "do things"...they don't always make sense. The GM makes it all up on the spot...or has some detailed setting notes to look at. Either way, it comes 100% from the GM. The player just asks what their character sees. The GM has full power, agency and everything else. Well, we can't really tell from your posts. After all they are cherry picked posts.....it's not like you would post stuff that made no sense and was random mish mash. But then we can never know the 'behind the screen' stuff anyway. You can just 'say' you did anything...we'd have no idea if it was true or not. Not just those three. Your forgetting Simulated Game Flow Reality, Common Sense, Times Arrow and MOST of all GMs whim and will. Everything that is 100% independent from the players and any action they might take. Glad we can agree on something. Wow....sadly...except for my two Super Advanced Die Hard gamers groups......everyone else I play with just barley meets 'they can read, write and roll dice". Except for my two groups, it is always hard for me to find any player who even comes sort of close to myself.....unless I take the player under my wing and mold them into a gamer like myself. Well, a full third of players are just disruptive jerks. But plenty of players just are clueless and don't know any better....so they can be helped. Well....this is not the place to talk about how bad of a film Star Wars is....no matter how popular it is..... But, by fiction, it's a VERY low standard. This right here is IT. Many years ago....people started to play RPGs. SOME of the people playing those games thought the rules were neat and all....but they wanted MORE. They wanted More then a Play-By-The-Rules Roll playing experience. They wanted a simulated game world reality. So they utterly left the rules on the pages in the books and created True Role Playing. That is everything about RPGs that have NOTHING at all what so ever to do with rules at all. The RPG Culture. But when ever your dealing with people, and words....you will get lots of vagueness and interpretation and more. And some people will always Disagree. And a good chunk of those people that disagreed broke off of the main RPG culture to go back to the All Rules Game. The Cricle will be Unbroken. [/QUOTE]
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