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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9116719" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>That isn't an accurate account of my RPGing exepriences.</p><p></p><p>Here's how I would describe it, from the player side:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>When I was regularly playing in what would *now</em> be described as a "trad" game - 2nd ed AD&D - my attempt to inhabit my PC, and pursue my PC's interests, had to yield from time to time to the fact that the GM was laying out a situation, with some sort of set of hidden ideas behind it, which I as a player had to engage with and resolve.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>When I play Burning Wheel, I inhabit my PC, and pursue my PC's interests, and it's like being there. And "panning out" my perspective, there emerges the *story</em> of my character (which includes my character's family and social world and concerns - it's not narcissistic or solipsistic fiction).</p><p></p><p>From the GM side, the following, quoted, post captures <em>nothing</em> about my RPGing experience:</p><p>What I enjoy about RPGing, on the GM side, is seeing exciting stories come to life. I enjoy the imagination, the dynamism, the bouncing off one another around the table.</p><p></p><p>For nearly a decade now, triggered I think by a re-read of the Silmarillion, which itself may have been triggered by reflecting on the hyper-Tolkienesque treatment of Elves and Dwarves in Burning Wheel, I've been thinking about different variations on the Dark Elf and Petty Dwarf motif.</p><p></p><p>In my first Burning Wheel game, one of the PCs - as has been recounted upthread - was returning to the ruined tower where (as per PC backstory) he had served his apprenticeship under his (now corrupted) brother. Another PC was an Elven "ronin", who had the Belief <em>I will always keep the Elven ways</em>. I introduced a Dark Elf NPC, who was the virtual opposite of the Elven ways - one of his character traits was Fithy. This NPC first appeared only as the unseen cause of an effect - the player of the Elf failed an Orienteering roll to lead the PCs across the Bright Desert, and I narrated this as, when they arrived at the foothills where they were expecting to find water, the waterhole had been soiled. The effects of the Dark Elf continue to manifest - he was the one who had taken the Falcon's Claw from the ruined tower. After a session or two I established that the Dark Elf was serving a Dark Naga, who ended up brining one of the PCs under its sway. (From memory, the Dark Elf was killed in combat by one of the PCs, in the naga's caverns, though I'd have to look around my campaign notes to get the details.)</p><p></p><p>In a current Burning Wheel game, my PC is a Dark Elf, who turned to bitter grief after his spouse died. He blames his father-in-law, the ambassador at the human port of Hardby, which is why he is there. </p><p></p><p>In my Torchbearer game, <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/" target="_blank">the first dungeon that I designed</a> was the abandoned dell of a Petty Dwarf. One artefact in the dungeon was an Elfstone, in which the dream spirit of the Petty Dwarf was trapped. The Elven Dreamwalker PC Fea-bella tried to drive out the spirit, and failed, and became obsessed by the stone. In a subsequent session <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-8796111" target="_blank">the stone was stolen</a>, it turns out <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-8920589" target="_blank">by Gerda, a NPC Dwarven friend of Golin the Dwarf PC</a>. In the second-last session, what had seemed like it might be the culmination in a change of relationship between Fea-bella and her enemy Megloss turned in completely the other direction, as <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-8935570" target="_blank">a failed attempt to bind an evil spirit</a> meant that it possessed Megloss. And then <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-9075201" target="_blank">in our most recent session</a> the PCs brought Megloss with them to confront Gerda the Elf-stone stealing Dwarf, Megloss killed her (after she nearly killed Fea-bella), and Golin and two other PCs (but not the Dreamwalker) killed Megloss. The Elfstone itself was left behind in Gerda's now-empty apartment (where for so many evenings she had sat brooding over the Elfstone).</p><p></p><p>So, and contra [USER=6747251]@Micah Sweet[/USER], GMing Burning Wheel and Torchbearer provides an amazing opportunity to express and explore my ideas about the Dark Elf and Petty Dwarf tropes and themes. I don't recall any one else ever posting on ENworld an example of RPGing in which those tropes and themes have been explored in a significantly more compelling fashion.</p><p></p><p>The difference in "story now" GMing compared to writing up a setting or a situation or a "story" for the players to work through, is that in my GMing I am in a type of dialogue with my players. It's not my job to decide, for instance, whether Megloss's killing of Gerda means that he deserves death. Or whether the sacrifice that Fea-bella made in order to be purged of her lust for the Elfstone (that is, letting Gerda plunge her spear into her heart, which would have been fatal had Fea-bella not had the will to live) was worthwhile.</p><p></p><p>I could give other examples: Prince Valiant, and the demands of knight errantry and court romances (eg it's not my job to decide whether or not it was appropriate for the PCs to arrange a political marriage of one of them, in order to obtain a castle as a base for their military order); or 4e, and the clash of divine order and primal chaos (eg it's not my job to decide whether it's good or bad that the PCs, even the one who opposes her, are paving the way for the Raven Queen to achieve her apotheosis as chief divinity of the cosmos). Even Classic Traveller, which is more prosaic in its orientation - still, it's not my job to decide whether the PCs are right or wrong in risking their standing and even survival in the here-and-now by going for that "one big payoff" (financial for some; exploratory for others).</p><p></p><p>So the idea that as a GM I am doing nothing but narrating things the PCs want is ridiculous. (Of course I am trying to give the players what they want, ie a fun time RPGing - what else would I be doing?) But it's not completely straightforward to have a RPG rules set that permits these questions and issues to be brought into play, <em>and yet</em> allow the GM to suspend judgement and let the players make their choices. In GM-driven RPGing, the GM is the one who makes the decision (eg about whether a risk will pay off) and the players' job is to work out what the GM's situation is (eg is a particular NPC amenable to being influenced; is a particular outpost too dangerous to assault; etc). This is why, upthread, I've said that AD&D is a pretty rickety system for "story now" RPGing, and hence why now I use RPGs that are better suited to it. (Classic Traveller being amazing in part because, while it was written in 1977, it can be played very much in an Apocalypse World style.)</p><p></p><p>If, as a GM, <em>your</em> vision of the setting is sacrosanct, and if the way situations resolve needs to reflect <em>your</em> judgement as to how values, opportunities, risks, etc should resolve themselves, then "story now" RPGing won't be for you. And you won't want to use rulesets that don't let you control those things.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9116719, member: 42582"] That isn't an accurate account of my RPGing exepriences. Here's how I would describe it, from the player side: [indent][I]When I was regularly playing in what would *now[/I] be described as a "trad" game - 2nd ed AD&D - my attempt to inhabit my PC, and pursue my PC's interests, had to yield from time to time to the fact that the GM was laying out a situation, with some sort of set of hidden ideas behind it, which I as a player had to engage with and resolve. [I]When I play Burning Wheel, I inhabit my PC, and pursue my PC's interests, and it's like being there. And "panning out" my perspective, there emerges the *story[/I] of my character (which includes my character's family and social world and concerns - it's not narcissistic or solipsistic fiction).[/indent] From the GM side, the following, quoted, post captures [I]nothing[/I] about my RPGing experience: What I enjoy about RPGing, on the GM side, is seeing exciting stories come to life. I enjoy the imagination, the dynamism, the bouncing off one another around the table. For nearly a decade now, triggered I think by a re-read of the Silmarillion, which itself may have been triggered by reflecting on the hyper-Tolkienesque treatment of Elves and Dwarves in Burning Wheel, I've been thinking about different variations on the Dark Elf and Petty Dwarf motif. In my first Burning Wheel game, one of the PCs - as has been recounted upthread - was returning to the ruined tower where (as per PC backstory) he had served his apprenticeship under his (now corrupted) brother. Another PC was an Elven "ronin", who had the Belief [I]I will always keep the Elven ways[/I]. I introduced a Dark Elf NPC, who was the virtual opposite of the Elven ways - one of his character traits was Fithy. This NPC first appeared only as the unseen cause of an effect - the player of the Elf failed an Orienteering roll to lead the PCs across the Bright Desert, and I narrated this as, when they arrived at the foothills where they were expecting to find water, the waterhole had been soiled. The effects of the Dark Elf continue to manifest - he was the one who had taken the Falcon's Claw from the ruined tower. After a session or two I established that the Dark Elf was serving a Dark Naga, who ended up brining one of the PCs under its sway. (From memory, the Dark Elf was killed in combat by one of the PCs, in the naga's caverns, though I'd have to look around my campaign notes to get the details.) In a current Burning Wheel game, my PC is a Dark Elf, who turned to bitter grief after his spouse died. He blames his father-in-law, the ambassador at the human port of Hardby, which is why he is there. In my Torchbearer game, [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/]the first dungeon that I designed[/url] was the abandoned dell of a Petty Dwarf. One artefact in the dungeon was an Elfstone, in which the dream spirit of the Petty Dwarf was trapped. The Elven Dreamwalker PC Fea-bella tried to drive out the spirit, and failed, and became obsessed by the stone. In a subsequent session [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-8796111]the stone was stolen[/url], it turns out [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-8920589]by Gerda, a NPC Dwarven friend of Golin the Dwarf PC[/url]. In the second-last session, what had seemed like it might be the culmination in a change of relationship between Fea-bella and her enemy Megloss turned in completely the other direction, as [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-8935570]a failed attempt to bind an evil spirit[/url] meant that it possessed Megloss. And then [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/post-9075201]in our most recent session[/url] the PCs brought Megloss with them to confront Gerda the Elf-stone stealing Dwarf, Megloss killed her (after she nearly killed Fea-bella), and Golin and two other PCs (but not the Dreamwalker) killed Megloss. The Elfstone itself was left behind in Gerda's now-empty apartment (where for so many evenings she had sat brooding over the Elfstone). So, and contra [USER=6747251]@Micah Sweet[/USER], GMing Burning Wheel and Torchbearer provides an amazing opportunity to express and explore my ideas about the Dark Elf and Petty Dwarf tropes and themes. I don't recall any one else ever posting on ENworld an example of RPGing in which those tropes and themes have been explored in a significantly more compelling fashion. The difference in "story now" GMing compared to writing up a setting or a situation or a "story" for the players to work through, is that in my GMing I am in a type of dialogue with my players. It's not my job to decide, for instance, whether Megloss's killing of Gerda means that he deserves death. Or whether the sacrifice that Fea-bella made in order to be purged of her lust for the Elfstone (that is, letting Gerda plunge her spear into her heart, which would have been fatal had Fea-bella not had the will to live) was worthwhile. I could give other examples: Prince Valiant, and the demands of knight errantry and court romances (eg it's not my job to decide whether or not it was appropriate for the PCs to arrange a political marriage of one of them, in order to obtain a castle as a base for their military order); or 4e, and the clash of divine order and primal chaos (eg it's not my job to decide whether it's good or bad that the PCs, even the one who opposes her, are paving the way for the Raven Queen to achieve her apotheosis as chief divinity of the cosmos). Even Classic Traveller, which is more prosaic in its orientation - still, it's not my job to decide whether the PCs are right or wrong in risking their standing and even survival in the here-and-now by going for that "one big payoff" (financial for some; exploratory for others). So the idea that as a GM I am doing nothing but narrating things the PCs want is ridiculous. (Of course I am trying to give the players what they want, ie a fun time RPGing - what else would I be doing?) But it's not completely straightforward to have a RPG rules set that permits these questions and issues to be brought into play, [I]and yet[/I] allow the GM to suspend judgement and let the players make their choices. In GM-driven RPGing, the GM is the one who makes the decision (eg about whether a risk will pay off) and the players' job is to work out what the GM's situation is (eg is a particular NPC amenable to being influenced; is a particular outpost too dangerous to assault; etc). This is why, upthread, I've said that AD&D is a pretty rickety system for "story now" RPGing, and hence why now I use RPGs that are better suited to it. (Classic Traveller being amazing in part because, while it was written in 1977, it can be played very much in an Apocalypse World style.) If, as a GM, [I]your[/I] vision of the setting is sacrosanct, and if the way situations resolve needs to reflect [I]your[/I] judgement as to how values, opportunities, risks, etc should resolve themselves, then "story now" RPGing won't be for you. And you won't want to use rulesets that don't let you control those things. [/QUOTE]
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