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What is player agency to you?
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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9117451" data-attributes="member: 6684958"><p>This is what was given as a game example:</p><p></p><p>1.Player wants something at random.</p><p>2.Player makes 'circle check' (or whatever game rule)</p><p>3.GM does whatever the player wants</p><p></p><p>I think the example was from the Burning Wheel game. So it should be noted, when someone gives a specific game example, any reply is only for that game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, in my view there is no 'us' and 'them'. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I get that some people...somehow...never ever meet bad players. Of course forums like this are full of bad player...and DM stories....so some must exist somewhere.</p><p></p><p>If it is SO IMPOSSIBLE to happen: Why, oh, why is it given as AN EXAMPLE?</p><p></p><p>1.Player wishes to randomly find some family members</p><p>2.Player makes check</p><p>3.DM says "oh, there are some family members right there".</p><p></p><p>So what part am I missing? Player made a wish. Player made a roll and made a rule check. DM did what the rule...and player...told them to do.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So...again....going by the example. Player wanted thing X, made a roll, and DM did thing X. Ok, I guess you can call it a "request''?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To be fair....I'm not even close to "wicked evil'' when it comes to bad players. But, I do undertand your confusion as you have said you just about never encounter bad players. I'd guess you never had a player lie to you, or cheat, or steal from you or call your wife a very bad name "as a joke". And if you say so, I can accept that you...somehow...never run into bad people ever. Maybe you live on a tiny island of like 200 people? </p><p></p><p>But I'd ask the same unanswered question again. The player gives the GM a 'ton' of stuff about their requirements for the game: the characters 'values' and such...as you have posted. So....what is the other side then? What 'ton' of stuff does the GM bring as requirements? </p><p></p><p>The player says 'I want my character to be brave in the face of danger and I require you put this in the game". So, what is an equal example the GM gives to the players and require in the game?</p><p></p><p>It seems very one sided to me.....unless you left out half of the example somehow?</p><p></p><p>Common is bit of a stretch. </p><p></p><p>You give a paragraph about what a player wants? Then get an idea to create something? And say 'ok, you created that"? I'm really not following, but I guess your saying the player just "wanted to be a cool teifling" and did not "request" for you to make up the whole "divine war thing"?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sounds great! Is the sort of thing I do in my games all the time. But I noted there are no 'game roll rules' here.</p><p></p><p>Right, I love history. So when a player says 'can we add in some history' it's great!</p><p></p><p>The idea here seems to be a player can make a rule check (the circle check) and then the DM must do as the player wants. </p><p></p><p>I get that in his game...and likely your game too....you WANT the player to tell you what to do and your Beyond Happy when the player makes the rule check so you can do it. </p><p></p><p>The problem comes from any other DM that might not 100% agree with the player 100% of the time. If the DM just decides 'nope no family members walking down the random street', then the player can 'attack' that idea by rolling the dice and making the check and saying "haha, yes there is!"</p><p></p><p>Well...maybe a little bit more like:</p><p></p><p>You mention you are thinking about going to an expensive concert. A (not) "friend" gets all excited and over joyed and says they would LOVE to go with you. So you buy two expensive concert tickets. THEN, on the day of the concert just hours before it starts this (looser of a not) "friend" says "sorry, bro, I gotta sit home tonight and play video games" and bails on you. So not only do you go to the concert alone, but you wasted the money buying two tickets.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see why this is such a hard question to answer....IF...what you say about equality is true. </p><p></p><p>The player tells the GM all sorts of things they want in the game: A big list. Then the GM agrees to do all those things.</p><p></p><p>So...where is the other side? Do you give and equally long list to the players? Do they have to agree to do as you wish the same way you do for them?</p><p></p><p>I get your personal examples will always be "do what the player wants": that seems to be your style. I don't see any thing in your examples where the player says something and you just outright say "no". So, I can only guess you don't do that much or not at all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9117451, member: 6684958"] This is what was given as a game example: 1.Player wants something at random. 2.Player makes 'circle check' (or whatever game rule) 3.GM does whatever the player wants I think the example was from the Burning Wheel game. So it should be noted, when someone gives a specific game example, any reply is only for that game. Well, in my view there is no 'us' and 'them'. I get that some people...somehow...never ever meet bad players. Of course forums like this are full of bad player...and DM stories....so some must exist somewhere. If it is SO IMPOSSIBLE to happen: Why, oh, why is it given as AN EXAMPLE? 1.Player wishes to randomly find some family members 2.Player makes check 3.DM says "oh, there are some family members right there". So what part am I missing? Player made a wish. Player made a roll and made a rule check. DM did what the rule...and player...told them to do. So...again....going by the example. Player wanted thing X, made a roll, and DM did thing X. Ok, I guess you can call it a "request''? To be fair....I'm not even close to "wicked evil'' when it comes to bad players. But, I do undertand your confusion as you have said you just about never encounter bad players. I'd guess you never had a player lie to you, or cheat, or steal from you or call your wife a very bad name "as a joke". And if you say so, I can accept that you...somehow...never run into bad people ever. Maybe you live on a tiny island of like 200 people? But I'd ask the same unanswered question again. The player gives the GM a 'ton' of stuff about their requirements for the game: the characters 'values' and such...as you have posted. So....what is the other side then? What 'ton' of stuff does the GM bring as requirements? The player says 'I want my character to be brave in the face of danger and I require you put this in the game". So, what is an equal example the GM gives to the players and require in the game? It seems very one sided to me.....unless you left out half of the example somehow? Common is bit of a stretch. You give a paragraph about what a player wants? Then get an idea to create something? And say 'ok, you created that"? I'm really not following, but I guess your saying the player just "wanted to be a cool teifling" and did not "request" for you to make up the whole "divine war thing"? Sounds great! Is the sort of thing I do in my games all the time. But I noted there are no 'game roll rules' here. Right, I love history. So when a player says 'can we add in some history' it's great! The idea here seems to be a player can make a rule check (the circle check) and then the DM must do as the player wants. I get that in his game...and likely your game too....you WANT the player to tell you what to do and your Beyond Happy when the player makes the rule check so you can do it. The problem comes from any other DM that might not 100% agree with the player 100% of the time. If the DM just decides 'nope no family members walking down the random street', then the player can 'attack' that idea by rolling the dice and making the check and saying "haha, yes there is!" Well...maybe a little bit more like: You mention you are thinking about going to an expensive concert. A (not) "friend" gets all excited and over joyed and says they would LOVE to go with you. So you buy two expensive concert tickets. THEN, on the day of the concert just hours before it starts this (looser of a not) "friend" says "sorry, bro, I gotta sit home tonight and play video games" and bails on you. So not only do you go to the concert alone, but you wasted the money buying two tickets. I don't see why this is such a hard question to answer....IF...what you say about equality is true. The player tells the GM all sorts of things they want in the game: A big list. Then the GM agrees to do all those things. So...where is the other side? Do you give and equally long list to the players? Do they have to agree to do as you wish the same way you do for them? I get your personal examples will always be "do what the player wants": that seems to be your style. I don't see any thing in your examples where the player says something and you just outright say "no". So, I can only guess you don't do that much or not at all. [/QUOTE]
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