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What is player agency to you?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9117797" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Then let's start here, and ignore the rest for now, because <em>this is already off-track</em>.</p><p></p><p>The player cannot--repeat, CANNOT--just ask for "something at random." Like the GM, the player must remain consistent with what is known to be true. Maybe they push toward something new, maybe they just bring back up something old, but they can't simply contradict, and they <em>definitely</em> cannot just will reality to be whatever they want it to be, whenever they want it to be that way.</p><p></p><p>What <em>actually happens</em> is this (for DW; Burning Wheel will work slightly differently, but not dramatically so):</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Player considers their situation and information, e.g.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Remembering something that happened in play</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Asking a question about where they are (e.g. "Are we near <my hometown>?")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Acting on a known goal or impuls (e.g., for Dungeon World, a Bond or Alignment)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Player says something <em>reasonable</em> that they want to do, which is consistent with the above (= the player "follows the fiction")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">GM frames a scene <em>appropriate</em> to point #1 that potentially enables point #2</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Repeat steps 1-3 until the player wants to do something where there is a meaningful risk of failure, and both failure and success are <em>reasonable</em> and <em>interesting</em> (e.g. don't do this if failure would merely be boring.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Based on what the player is trying to do, they make the appropriate Move (e.g., if they are trying to "act despite an imminent threat," that move is Defy Danger; if they are trying to "closely study a situation or person," that move is Discern Realities)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Whatever they roll, the group follows the instructions of the move (usually, both player and GM have things they must do)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The GM tells the player(s) what exactly has happened, and what the new situation is.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Repeat from step 1, possibly for the same player, possibly for a different player.</li> </ol><p>Or, if you want that REALLY REALLY TL;DR:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Player thinks/asks about what's going on</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">GM tells them (framing a scene)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Player tries to do something that makes sense</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If flat yes (or flat no), go back to step 1; if neither, use the rules to resolve it (often, a roll)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">GM uses that result to tell the player reasonable consequences for their attempt</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Repeat from start (possibly with a different player)</li> </ol><p>That is what is happening. Every single time. You keep inventing wild, crazy nonsense that <em>doesn't even match the first point</em>, which makes everything that comes after it <em>wrong</em>.</p><p></p><p>Players can't just declare what they want at random. GMs can't just declare what they think should happen at random. <em>Nobody</em> has that much unbound freedom in this context. Both sides must make sense. If someone is truly trying to push for nonsense,<em> they have already broken the rules</em>.</p><p></p><p>With [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s example of the dwarf and his brother, it is not, <em>at all</em>, "I want to meet a relative in this random place, who will then give me everything I desire." You have failed before you even get to the <em>tenth word</em>. Because it <em>isn't</em> just a random place. The place they're in IS his hometown.<em> This is already known</em>. If you had bothred to read Pemerton's posts, you would <em>know</em> that Auxol IS Thurgon's hometown, a place where relatives of his have some authority. Of course he could expect to find some of his relatives there if he keeps an eye out for them...that's where they <em>live</em>.</p><p></p><p>And then you insert this utterly ridiculous notion about getting 25 healing potions from the brother. Nothing whatsoever like that occurs. At all. You keep harping on your invented examples like that, but <em>nothing</em> in what Pemerton said looks like that! Instead, it's just, "I'm on the lookout for members of my family, I want to talk with them and find out what's going on." So the GM frames a situation where, at some point along the PCs' walk, they pass a field where Thurgon's brother is located--but said brother seems to be a broken man, cowed by something and unwilling to discuss it. This is the conflict of the scene that the GM has framed; the player wants to get information from Thurgon's brother, perhaps even have the brother swear to support his cause, but the brother is fearful and reluctant--Thurgon must face a conflict between his desire to fulfill the mission he's on, and his desire to respect and support his family. He makes a choice, one that requires a roll to resolve, and appropriate consequences follow from that roll, perhaps good, perhaps bad.</p><p></p><p>At no point did anything ridiculous like this "25 healing potions" thing come in. At no point was the player asking for something unreasonable--and if they had, they would be playing in bad faith, and told to stop or, if it gets out of hand, to leave. <em>Likewise</em>, if the GM is simply <em>dictating</em> what is true to the players, <em>narrating</em> the results of their actions without actually respecting the rules for how actions should be resolved, then the GM is being unreasonable and SHOULD be told to stop. Do you see how this relationship is reciprocal? <strong>All</strong> participants are required to obey the rules, and one of the rules is that you be reasonable and attempt actions (or frame scenes, for GMs) that are reasonable. The instant you start asking for ridiculous nonsense, <em>no matter who you are</em>, you have broken the rules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9117797, member: 6790260"] Then let's start here, and ignore the rest for now, because [I]this is already off-track[/I]. The player cannot--repeat, CANNOT--just ask for "something at random." Like the GM, the player must remain consistent with what is known to be true. Maybe they push toward something new, maybe they just bring back up something old, but they can't simply contradict, and they [I]definitely[/I] cannot just will reality to be whatever they want it to be, whenever they want it to be that way. What [I]actually happens[/I] is this (for DW; Burning Wheel will work slightly differently, but not dramatically so): [LIST=1] [*]Player considers their situation and information, e.g. [LIST] [*]Remembering something that happened in play [*]Asking a question about where they are (e.g. "Are we near <my hometown>?") [*]Acting on a known goal or impuls (e.g., for Dungeon World, a Bond or Alignment) [/LIST] [*]Player says something [I]reasonable[/I] that they want to do, which is consistent with the above (= the player "follows the fiction") [*]GM frames a scene [I]appropriate[/I] to point #1 that potentially enables point #2 [*]Repeat steps 1-3 until the player wants to do something where there is a meaningful risk of failure, and both failure and success are [I]reasonable[/I] and [I]interesting[/I] (e.g. don't do this if failure would merely be boring. [*]Based on what the player is trying to do, they make the appropriate Move (e.g., if they are trying to "act despite an imminent threat," that move is Defy Danger; if they are trying to "closely study a situation or person," that move is Discern Realities) [*]Whatever they roll, the group follows the instructions of the move (usually, both player and GM have things they must do) [*]The GM tells the player(s) what exactly has happened, and what the new situation is. [*]Repeat from step 1, possibly for the same player, possibly for a different player. [/LIST] Or, if you want that REALLY REALLY TL;DR: [LIST=1] [*]Player thinks/asks about what's going on [*]GM tells them (framing a scene) [*]Player tries to do something that makes sense [*]If flat yes (or flat no), go back to step 1; if neither, use the rules to resolve it (often, a roll) [*]GM uses that result to tell the player reasonable consequences for their attempt [*]Repeat from start (possibly with a different player) [/LIST] That is what is happening. Every single time. You keep inventing wild, crazy nonsense that [I]doesn't even match the first point[/I], which makes everything that comes after it [I]wrong[/I]. Players can't just declare what they want at random. GMs can't just declare what they think should happen at random. [I]Nobody[/I] has that much unbound freedom in this context. Both sides must make sense. If someone is truly trying to push for nonsense,[I] they have already broken the rules[/I]. With [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s example of the dwarf and his brother, it is not, [I]at all[/I], "I want to meet a relative in this random place, who will then give me everything I desire." You have failed before you even get to the [I]tenth word[/I]. Because it [I]isn't[/I] just a random place. The place they're in IS his hometown.[I] This is already known[/I]. If you had bothred to read Pemerton's posts, you would [I]know[/I] that Auxol IS Thurgon's hometown, a place where relatives of his have some authority. Of course he could expect to find some of his relatives there if he keeps an eye out for them...that's where they [I]live[/I]. And then you insert this utterly ridiculous notion about getting 25 healing potions from the brother. Nothing whatsoever like that occurs. At all. You keep harping on your invented examples like that, but [I]nothing[/I] in what Pemerton said looks like that! Instead, it's just, "I'm on the lookout for members of my family, I want to talk with them and find out what's going on." So the GM frames a situation where, at some point along the PCs' walk, they pass a field where Thurgon's brother is located--but said brother seems to be a broken man, cowed by something and unwilling to discuss it. This is the conflict of the scene that the GM has framed; the player wants to get information from Thurgon's brother, perhaps even have the brother swear to support his cause, but the brother is fearful and reluctant--Thurgon must face a conflict between his desire to fulfill the mission he's on, and his desire to respect and support his family. He makes a choice, one that requires a roll to resolve, and appropriate consequences follow from that roll, perhaps good, perhaps bad. At no point did anything ridiculous like this "25 healing potions" thing come in. At no point was the player asking for something unreasonable--and if they had, they would be playing in bad faith, and told to stop or, if it gets out of hand, to leave. [I]Likewise[/I], if the GM is simply [I]dictating[/I] what is true to the players, [I]narrating[/I] the results of their actions without actually respecting the rules for how actions should be resolved, then the GM is being unreasonable and SHOULD be told to stop. Do you see how this relationship is reciprocal? [B]All[/B] participants are required to obey the rules, and one of the rules is that you be reasonable and attempt actions (or frame scenes, for GMs) that are reasonable. The instant you start asking for ridiculous nonsense, [I]no matter who you are[/I], you have broken the rules. [/QUOTE]
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