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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9118142" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Again, it was the example given.Ok, so an example was given.  I look at the example, and point out some obvious things.Ok.....then, I get told "oh there are like 25 OTHER unmentioned rules and like 25 OTHER "gentleman agreement' things that were not mentioned at all in the example, but must be enforced at all times.  So....I wonder why all of this was not mentioned before to put the example in context.Ok....but are there any rules for what is "reasonable"?  What is "reasonable"?  Who gets to make the final call?  And I'd guess your going to say the GM....so, the player goes back to having NO agency as the GM can always just say "no".  Right, GM does what the player tells them to do, we have established this point.So if the GM can just decide whatever, so where is the player agency?  Right...so the above apples to games like D&D too.  Except 2 is "the DM describes the game reality around the character".  And 3 is "the player can have the character attempt to do anything with the characters abilities in the fictional reality.  And 5 is "the GM tells the player what happens 100%"  But...ok, this still does not address the example of "player keeps and eye out for family members, rolls a rule check, and the GM alters reality to the players wish and says "your bother is right there next to you".So, yet again, this is exactly what happens in the example.Yes they can.  It's exactly what GMs always do nearly every second of game play.  In your above, the GM is doing this for both 2 and 5.....and most of all 4.  If there were such rules, I'd guess they must be like 500 pages or more.  But it seems a rule or two on a page that says "your game must make sense" would not be of any real help.I will grant the example of "being in their hometown" is a bit vague, but we are not told they are in any specific place....so they could just be on a road somewhere.  To me it's like your saying "the players wish power can only effect an area the size of a 'hometown', so guess a mile or so, but not like "the whole galaxy".Right, I thought it was clear that was My Example.  If I need to say it: that was my example.Right, we got the "player wished for something" and the "GM made it happen for them" down pat.  And...wait....how is this any different then any GM doing anything any player does not like ever?  This is just Word Salad though.  It's endless unhelpful words on a page.Player walks up to a house door and says "I look for the key under the doormat"...a Very Reasonable thing.  Player gets a 100 on the roll rule whatever.  The GM says "nope no key"...also a Very Reasonable thing.  Both player and GM grab the rule book an point to the "reasonable rule"....and what, the game ends?  Well, you did not include any of this for context.  Though "not seeing family members at a single spot in the characters hometown" sure seems like a HUGE stretch to say that is an "obstacle".  Ok, you just said what I said.  Player makes a wish/request/declaration/other word salad.  Player rolls successful check.  Dm does what the player wants/establishes what the player wants as part of the fiction.Ok, so a different rule but same effect?  Player walks over to a random tree and says "I keep and eye out for a pile of gold".  Player succeeds a scavenger check.  GM says "you find a pile of gold under the tree".  Same thing.Well, I'd guess you will say it, for example, in response to the above scavenger test check for a pile of gold.  I'd guess you are likely to say  "Oh a player can't just say a pile of gold is just anywhere" and that is a Huge limit on where the player can "just say" a pile of gold is.  So where can the player use the scavenger test ability to find gold then?  Maybe ten places world wide?  And only places, you as GM, say gold is there?  So, this would be you saying the player can only shape teeny tiny bits of fiction once in a while.No.  That is something you would see in a game with a Casual GM.  The type of GM with a backwards baseball cap and a bottle of Mt. Dew, who when they hear the player mention the 'necromancer', will then say "woooah, cool story bro, I'm tottaly going to use that".I'm the GM with a massive plan.Well, something in a backstory is pre approved by me first before getting in the game.  And in any case I have 100% creative control over everything.  So, sure a player can put a "Super Duper Sword of All Dragon Slaying".....annnnddddd, I will say is a dragon bane sword that does a bit of extra damage.And sure they can give me the name and bare bones of an NPC in their background "My characters dad is a rich merchant", but then I have full control over everything.Even if you say it's silly....it would happen in silly games.  Though also Cartoon games, Goofy games and Games that don't make sense.  You can say it will never happen in your game....but there are hundreds of others where it can and will.Right, I get the idea that a player can never fail a roll and always gets what they want.Player wishes to find a healer to heal them for free....but oh, no, the healer is in jail.  Bail is 10 gold.  Yawn.  Character pays the bail and gets their free healing.  Exciting game play for some.It's the worst example I've ever seen.A player can occasionally  make a roll to 'do agency' under the massive restrictions of the vague rules, and the total control of the GM to do very, very, very slight, tiny and minor effects...under total control of the GM, sometimes "with a cost".Then everyone says "wow, look at that Player Agency!"</blockquote>

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