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What is player agency to you?
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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9120076" data-attributes="member: 6684958"><p>If you do check my post you might notice I don't mention games by name. I speak in general. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure why you brought it up anyway.</p><p></p><p>I do agree a players decision power is less then one 1%, and the DM gets to decide 99%. The only other ways to do it is have an all DM game or no DM game.</p><p></p><p>Again, your not getting the definition of casual.</p><p></p><p>And this is why people made the 'other' games: for people just like you. </p><p></p><p>Well, it's one this to "be how it is" as you say and simply not play in the game. It's a whole other thing if you choose to join the game "being how you are".</p><p></p><p>And again, I'm not talking specifically about you or your games. There are some no prep or light prep game styles.</p><p></p><p>And I have commented on the specifice examples...and then been told "oh there is more to it" or there is "other stuff we did not mention" or most of all "I read it wrong".</p><p>It's clear to me: player wants something and says so. Player makes a rule check. DM does what player says. It's that simple. Yet you say it's not.</p><p></p><p>And sure the character must be at a specific place and a right time and have the right skill and be reasonable...but once all that is met, the player can just say they want something. Then the player makes a game rule roll. Then the GM does whatever the player wants.</p><p></p><p>Except the problem is the GM, if they are not a fan/buddy of the players, is neutral. I make secret back doors in some places based on the game simulated reality of where I think they should be.</p><p></p><p>And a play can do that....but much more often will make self serving easy button things to their own advantage. </p><p></p><p>Again....this is the Rulebook example: Character finds front door guarded. Character walks to the back and uses a skill to look for a secret door. Player makes rule check. DM says 'yup, you find the secret door(that the GM just created for the character).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's just the Player Lead way is not a good way. Any time, under all the restrictions of when, where and how, they player can "just say" things are in the game. This is Easy Button play at best, or just Full Exploit Code at worst. </p><p></p><p>Well, that is the exact example. Character looks for secret door, Player makes roll, GM says "the secret door is right in front of you". so how is that not giving the player exactly what they wanted?</p><p></p><p>I guess the part your missing here is how indirect it was. The players say they want a type of game, but that is it. They don't get control over anything once they utter those words. </p><p></p><p>I noted it felt that the examples did not work out of context....but it does not seem like anyone can offer them in context.</p><p></p><p>They are very different. A player asks for a type of game and has less then zero input on anything after saying that vs a player with a character at set times and places can alter the game reality using a special rule. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Part of being a good GM. Note not once ever did they say "I want x", make a roll, and then I did that for them....</p><p></p><p>I guess your going back to the anti-prep/anti-detail idea? Let me know? The complaint I'm talking about is where players don't like that they can't create and alter the games fiction Outside The Game, because the GM has everything written down in Stone. </p><p></p><p>The GM makes the Tower Terrible with lots of notes. It has no back secret door. The character wanders over and the players says "I want a back door". GM says nope, I Have Spoken and points to the game notes.</p><p></p><p>So the idea is if "the tower place" is just a "vague thing" with little or no notes....a player can say "I want a back door" and the GM will just blink and say "oh, ok, why not...poof...there is a back door" becasue they have no 'notes in stone'.</p><p></p><p>Is this what your talking about?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9120076, member: 6684958"] If you do check my post you might notice I don't mention games by name. I speak in general. I'm not sure why you brought it up anyway. I do agree a players decision power is less then one 1%, and the DM gets to decide 99%. The only other ways to do it is have an all DM game or no DM game. Again, your not getting the definition of casual. And this is why people made the 'other' games: for people just like you. Well, it's one this to "be how it is" as you say and simply not play in the game. It's a whole other thing if you choose to join the game "being how you are". And again, I'm not talking specifically about you or your games. There are some no prep or light prep game styles. And I have commented on the specifice examples...and then been told "oh there is more to it" or there is "other stuff we did not mention" or most of all "I read it wrong". It's clear to me: player wants something and says so. Player makes a rule check. DM does what player says. It's that simple. Yet you say it's not. And sure the character must be at a specific place and a right time and have the right skill and be reasonable...but once all that is met, the player can just say they want something. Then the player makes a game rule roll. Then the GM does whatever the player wants. Except the problem is the GM, if they are not a fan/buddy of the players, is neutral. I make secret back doors in some places based on the game simulated reality of where I think they should be. And a play can do that....but much more often will make self serving easy button things to their own advantage. Again....this is the Rulebook example: Character finds front door guarded. Character walks to the back and uses a skill to look for a secret door. Player makes rule check. DM says 'yup, you find the secret door(that the GM just created for the character). It's just the Player Lead way is not a good way. Any time, under all the restrictions of when, where and how, they player can "just say" things are in the game. This is Easy Button play at best, or just Full Exploit Code at worst. Well, that is the exact example. Character looks for secret door, Player makes roll, GM says "the secret door is right in front of you". so how is that not giving the player exactly what they wanted? I guess the part your missing here is how indirect it was. The players say they want a type of game, but that is it. They don't get control over anything once they utter those words. I noted it felt that the examples did not work out of context....but it does not seem like anyone can offer them in context. They are very different. A player asks for a type of game and has less then zero input on anything after saying that vs a player with a character at set times and places can alter the game reality using a special rule. Part of being a good GM. Note not once ever did they say "I want x", make a roll, and then I did that for them.... I guess your going back to the anti-prep/anti-detail idea? Let me know? The complaint I'm talking about is where players don't like that they can't create and alter the games fiction Outside The Game, because the GM has everything written down in Stone. The GM makes the Tower Terrible with lots of notes. It has no back secret door. The character wanders over and the players says "I want a back door". GM says nope, I Have Spoken and points to the game notes. So the idea is if "the tower place" is just a "vague thing" with little or no notes....a player can say "I want a back door" and the GM will just blink and say "oh, ok, why not...poof...there is a back door" becasue they have no 'notes in stone'. Is this what your talking about? [/QUOTE]
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