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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8857315" data-attributes="member: 7030563">A couple points:1. A 18th or higher level Bard can prepare all 9 of these spells.&nbsp; Every single one of them, at the same time on the same player.&nbsp; Not only can he get all 9 of these he can also pick up Mass Heal, Shadow of Moil and Temple of the Gods to boot which is flat impossible for any single class Wizard to do.2. Two of these are not all that powerfulHypnotic Pattern is often cited as a strong spell but in terms of mechanics it isn't.&nbsp; RAW it is actually pretty weak for a 3rd level slot because it does not take away any actions on the turn you are shaken out of your stupor.&nbsp; Use HP on a group of 20 Orcs and 19 fail their save and all 19 should be up and attacking the Wizard's party again the very next round.&nbsp; If at least one intelligent enemy makes the initial save it should never last more than 2 rounds.&nbsp; Even if all of them fail the save, once you damage one of them they should be able to all get out of it unless you can kill that one you damage before his turn.The reason it is strong in play is because the DMs nerf the enemies or buff the spell.&nbsp; Either they say the Orcs are too stupid to shake their allies out of it, or alternatively they say if one Orc #1 just used his action to shake Orc #2 out of it then Orc #2 can't use his action on the same turn to shake out Orc #3 even though he is no longer charmed or incpacitated and the rules do not support this idea of taking actions from those who are no longer charmed.Find Familiar is also not that powerful.&nbsp; If you use a slot to cast it, it is even weak I would say.&nbsp; It is also available to any character at all, even a non-caster through the Magic Initiate or the Ritual Caster feats.&nbsp;&nbsp; Like HP it is powerful in play because of the DMs.&nbsp; They refuse to target familiars and on the rare occasion they do kill them, they allow the party time to recast it as a ritual.&nbsp; A thrown rock will usually kill a Wizards familiar in one attack.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8857315, member: 7030563"] A couple points: 1. A 18th or higher level Bard can prepare all 9 of these spells. Every single one of them, at the same time on the same player. Not only can he get all 9 of these he can also pick up Mass Heal, Shadow of Moil and Temple of the Gods to boot which is flat impossible for any single class Wizard to do. 2. Two of these are not all that powerful Hypnotic Pattern is often cited as a strong spell but in terms of mechanics it isn't. RAW it is actually pretty weak for a 3rd level slot because it does not take away any actions on the turn you are shaken out of your stupor. Use HP on a group of 20 Orcs and 19 fail their save and all 19 should be up and attacking the Wizard's party again the very next round. If at least one intelligent enemy makes the initial save it should never last more than 2 rounds. Even if all of them fail the save, once you damage one of them they should be able to all get out of it unless you can kill that one you damage before his turn. The reason it is strong in play is because the DMs nerf the enemies or buff the spell. Either they say the Orcs are too stupid to shake their allies out of it, or alternatively they say if one Orc #1 just used his action to shake Orc #2 out of it then Orc #2 can't use his action on the same turn to shake out Orc #3 even though he is no longer charmed or incpacitated and the rules do not support this idea of taking actions from those who are no longer charmed. Find Familiar is also not that powerful. If you use a slot to cast it, it is even weak I would say. It is also available to any character at all, even a non-caster through the Magic Initiate or the Ritual Caster feats. Like HP it is powerful in play because of the DMs. They refuse to target familiars and on the rare occasion they do kill them, they allow the party time to recast it as a ritual. A thrown rock will usually kill a Wizards familiar in one attack. [/QUOTE]

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