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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8857477" data-attributes="member: 6987520">I really have no idea why you are even discussing this anymore... I already said it falls until the "Spells are too powerful" and/or "Too Large a Spell List" issues...I really have no idea why you are even discussing this anymore... I already said it falls until the "Spells are too powerful" and/or "Too Large a Spell List" issues...Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you just meant "new" spells that Wizard got because you said each new publication gives them the bulk of spells or something.If you want to include "old" spells which Wizards now have access, too, then yes it is 23. But then, look at Sorcerers in that same light, they get 21, only 2 less. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />So now you are going back to discussing just "new spells"...? Make up your mind LOL! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Did I ever say Wizards don't get more spells? I seem to recall actually saying that is the reason WHY they get more, it is all they have. While Sorcerers also rely solely on spells for their features, at least they have something else they can do with them, and they did get to more Metamagic features as well.Did you miss that I didn't include subclasses for ANY of those other casters because they all get them (2 or 3 each)?And most of them are "powerful" subclasses (Welcome, Tasha, let me introduce you to Power Creep. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> ). FWIW, I don't even use Tasha's stuff... 90% of it anyway, because it is too powerful.Look, what I am saying is this: spells too powerful isn't just a Wizard issue. To many (such as yourself?) it seems like that because Wizards get access to many of those "too powerful spells". The bigger issue (no pun intended) is the "Too Large a Spell List" which Wizards have. Do I expect them to have a larger spell list? Certainly, but not as huge as it is!This is why in our groups Mod for 5E we redistributed the spells as follows:[ATTACH=full]269536[/ATTACH]If you focus on the Total and Original lines at the bottom, this shows the change in number of spells for each class. The original spell list we used had about 460 spells and the final had one or two less IIRC. This means Wizards originally had access to nearly 65% of all the spells in the game at that time! Now, they have access to less than 42% (still large, but not nearly as bad!).Bards went down quite a bit, but we reduced them to half-casters so that is why. If you look at their "original" for just 1st-5th levels, it was 93, so they gained a couple spells in the end (going to 95 spells of 1st-5th levels).Otherwise, Clerics gained over 10%. Druids lost about 10%. Paladins gained 10%, and Rangers lost about 5%. But Wizards lost over 35% of their spells!Of course, Sorcerers and Warlocks were designated to subclasses of Wizard and Cleric, respectively. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />We also reduced overlap from nearly 75% of all spells had at least two classes that can cast it, to just about 35% of spells with two or more classes having access.</blockquote>

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