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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 8867369" data-attributes="member: 6684958">By &quot;voted&quot; are you saying &quot;nearly everyone chose to do so&quot;?&nbsp; I agree that most gamers created the problem with things like &quot;max HP per level&quot; and &quot;builds with high ability scores&quot;.But there is also the big Game Frame Work : the game play style.&nbsp; That is the big one.&nbsp; A LOT of gamers give the wizard a free pass or&nbsp; easy button.&nbsp; Then they act schocked when that causes a problem.&nbsp; Right, so some few low level games might...sometimes...inconvenience a wizard character for a coupe rounds with something physical.&nbsp; Though way to many games just give the wizard a free pass and/or just don't have anything that might negatively effect the wizard.The the level problem is a BIG problem.&nbsp; It's the scale problem.&nbsp; Modern D&amp;D does not do campaign scaling...it only really cares about monsters.&nbsp; Lets take climbing a cliff.First flaw-The DM leaks what the wizard needs.&nbsp; The wizard is great and versatile, but ONLY&nbsp; when they know in advance what might happen.&nbsp; You can't &quot;plan ahead&quot; for everything.&nbsp; If you KNOW...that is the DM tells you, &quot;ok there will be climbing in this adventure&quot;, then that allows the wizard to go to town and buy/make needed things.&nbsp; Oh the wizard just RANDOMLY bought a wand of spider climb after the DM told the player &quot;there will be climbing&quot;....hum.Also not only can a wizard not plan for everything, but they also have limits....only so many spells can be cast, so many charges, and so on.&nbsp; So they might be able to handle three or so cliffs, but more starts cutting to deep.&nbsp; Plus the allocation of&nbsp; resources, each 'climbing spell&quot; they pick is one less of another spell.Second flaw-The Big One: The game world does not scale up.&nbsp; This has been a problem starting in 3E.&nbsp; Up to 5th level it's just a &quot;normal rocky cliffside&quot;, after 5th level you MIGHT find a published &quot;more challenging&quot; cliffside, but likely not.&nbsp; And so THAT is the huge problem.&nbsp; At like 10th level the DM is like &quot;there is a cliff&quot; and the player of the wizard just half asleep says &quot;whatever, zip, my wizard flies to the top&quot;.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because it's just a rocky cliff.But if the cliff side...and the whole world scaled up, then the wizard starts having problems.&nbsp; Is the cliff side covered in archer bushes?&nbsp; Does the cliffside animate and shoot rocks?&nbsp; Does the cliffside have a magic gravity effect?&nbsp; Are there flying foes nearby?&nbsp; Is the whole cliffside area in an anti magic field?&nbsp; See, when you scale up the game world, it fixes a lot of the problems in the OP.&nbsp; And it's NOT to &quot;just attack&quot; the &quot;poor&quot; wizard, after all it effects everyone.&nbsp; And sure too many players...and sadly DMs....looks at anything taht might negatively effect the &quot;poor&quot; wizard as wrong.&nbsp; Tell a player it's an anti magical cliff area and they will likely walk out of the game and say &quot;I'm not going to stay in a game where the DM won't let me play my character!&quot;&nbsp; Though a better player would not do that.And even with scaling up, the wizard does still have a nice tool box.&nbsp; A smart, savvy, clever player can STILL....sometimes...at least partially over come the scaled up.&nbsp; But even if they do, it does take up resources....and that has a huge effect on game play over all.&nbsp; But D&amp;D falls flat on this.&nbsp; There is very little about this in the core rules at all.&nbsp; Nothing like an Encounter Manual to match the Monster Manual.&nbsp; So few gamers even know that scale even exists.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 8867369, member: 6684958"] By "voted" are you saying "nearly everyone chose to do so"? I agree that most gamers created the problem with things like "max HP per level" and "builds with high ability scores". But there is also the big Game Frame Work : the game play style. That is the big one. A LOT of gamers give the wizard a free pass or easy button. Then they act schocked when that causes a problem. Right, so some few low level games might...sometimes...inconvenience a wizard character for a coupe rounds with something physical. Though way to many games just give the wizard a free pass and/or just don't have anything that might negatively effect the wizard. The the level problem is a BIG problem. It's the scale problem. Modern D&D does not do campaign scaling...it only really cares about monsters. Lets take climbing a cliff. First flaw-The DM leaks what the wizard needs. The wizard is great and versatile, but ONLY when they know in advance what might happen. You can't "plan ahead" for everything. If you KNOW...that is the DM tells you, "ok there will be climbing in this adventure", then that allows the wizard to go to town and buy/make needed things. Oh the wizard just RANDOMLY bought a wand of spider climb after the DM told the player "there will be climbing"....hum. Also not only can a wizard not plan for everything, but they also have limits....only so many spells can be cast, so many charges, and so on. So they might be able to handle three or so cliffs, but more starts cutting to deep. Plus the allocation of resources, each 'climbing spell" they pick is one less of another spell. Second flaw-The Big One: The game world does not scale up. This has been a problem starting in 3E. Up to 5th level it's just a "normal rocky cliffside", after 5th level you MIGHT find a published "more challenging" cliffside, but likely not. And so THAT is the huge problem. At like 10th level the DM is like "there is a cliff" and the player of the wizard just half asleep says "whatever, zip, my wizard flies to the top". Why? Because it's just a rocky cliff. But if the cliff side...and the whole world scaled up, then the wizard starts having problems. Is the cliff side covered in archer bushes? Does the cliffside animate and shoot rocks? Does the cliffside have a magic gravity effect? Are there flying foes nearby? Is the whole cliffside area in an anti magic field? See, when you scale up the game world, it fixes a lot of the problems in the OP. And it's NOT to "just attack" the "poor" wizard, after all it effects everyone. And sure too many players...and sadly DMs....looks at anything taht might negatively effect the "poor" wizard as wrong. Tell a player it's an anti magical cliff area and they will likely walk out of the game and say "I'm not going to stay in a game where the DM won't let me play my character!" Though a better player would not do that. And even with scaling up, the wizard does still have a nice tool box. A smart, savvy, clever player can STILL....sometimes...at least partially over come the scaled up. But even if they do, it does take up resources....and that has a huge effect on game play over all. But D&D falls flat on this. There is very little about this in the core rules at all. Nothing like an Encounter Manual to match the Monster Manual. So few gamers even know that scale even exists. [/QUOTE]

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