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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7450794" data-attributes="member: 82106">I'm not sure what 5e has to say about it, because, TBH, 5e could have been written in 1992 and it would hardly have been remarkable! DW and FATE are a LOT more like 4e than they are like 5e, so I would say that, if you think PF2 is paying attention to 4e, then it would likely be paying attention to those games as well, at least by my reckoning. I consider 4e to be a heavily story oriented game, although its exposition of that was somewhat poor.4e keywords, IMHO, don't tell you how to parse a power, aside from a few obvious things like damage type (all of which are pretty self-explanatory). Most of what keywords are for is to provide the 'hooks' that you can use to hang other stuff from (IE I can have a feat that interacts with things with the 'necromantic' keyword). 5e, by eschewing this, is a big step backwards in clarity and ease of use in play and for designers. It is actually a considerable turn off in my book. When I play (which I do much more often than I read a book) I want CLARITY and brevity, so I can quickly and reliably understand what the thing is getting at. I disagree, all editions of D&D assume increasing adds to the die roll (or in the case of AD&D decreasing THAC0 scores and saves, which is the same thing). You fall behind in 5e just as you would in any other E, or tread water. That's the whole D&D paradigm. Now, the differences in levels is not a difference in MATH, there's no reason to change working math, its a change in thematics, tone, and play. In 1e and 2e the game becomes crazier and more dominated by powerful spells and items, with monster lore graduating from your foes being 'an orc' to 'Demogorgon Prince of Demons'. In 4e there is the same sorts of progressions, but the powers are more tightly controlled and its the thematics of the characters that goes crazy (you become Rachitoff the Daggermaster, Thief of Legend). I like the way 4e handles this. 3.x basically just had "its broken at level 12" (assuming your players were polite enough to wait that long, or that the DM heavily restricted play and/or some combination of these things). Most games which operated at double-digit levels simply had an unwritten set of 'rules' that players went by. Nominally it tried to do what 4e actually did successfully, by having things like PrCs and such.5e is mostly like AD&D in this regard, EXCEPT, its attempt to 'make bonuses not matter' actually messed up the part that worked well in AD&D! That is the thematic progression from orcs to demons. Now its unclear exactly when each creature really IS thematically appropriate, although orcs are still basically not a threat to higher level PCs. It seems like a 'worst of all worlds' solution to me.I think the precise language, coupled with transparent math, and remarkable distribution of thematic weight and plot power over all classes are a hallmark of 4e. Epic works. It is still crazy in good ways, and more challenging to run well, but it hangs together.</blockquote>

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