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What is the essence of 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7454937" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I think 'indie design' vs 'traditional design' is a meaningless distinction when people are having fun playing games. There's nothing inherent about either type of game which makes it more or less popular than the other. So, that part feels wrong to me. </p><p></p><p>It may be that there were differences of opinion on the 4e team about exactly what game they were writing, that's possible and even likely. There may have been differences between the designers and the marketers, also likely. There may have been some thought of not wanting to go completely over into 'story now' without leaving the game capable of working in more traditional ways. We don't really know what exact discussions happened in that vein. I know that it IS a narrativistic game design, and a good game. I don't need to speculate on that!</p><p></p><p>I think a lot of what we did in previous editions CAN be done in 4e. Its done a little bit differently is all. I ran plenty of scenarios that I had outlined as possibilities in my old 2e games using 4e. Its still D&D in many fundamental ways.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I just thought Essentials was kind of a waste of time and resources that could have been better spent on other things. The guy harps on the VTT not materializing, but couldn't they have spent the money that went into Essentials on making it a reality? I mean, what people call 'flaws in 4e' seems more like just basic business mistakes that came back to bite WotC.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I think Essentials missed some key things about 4e and it wouldn't have worked out. They needed to go FURTHER with it if it was going to succeed, not try to regress, which is what Essentials is really about. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, we had a LONG discussion of this in another thread, and I never saw anyone draw up a convincing picture for me as to how you would do that. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see where they did anything like that 'retroactively'. There's a lot of stuff in DMG1 which comes right out of classic narrativist game design and play toolbox. Its just not consistent and all clearly spelled out ABC there. DMG2 seems more reactive to me. It includes a lot of good advice for how to run the sort of weird 3-legged-dog that is the game you get when you take DMG1 literally. It makes that a MORE workable game, but the MOST workable configuration is, and thus would be, a story oriented one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think there are reasons to doubt that 'story now' games will sustain robust product lines of adventures. OTOH 4e didn't feature a huge line of modules. It seemed like their strategy was more to make it easy for GMs to cook up stories. I'm not sure how that all fits together in the end. I do believe that some of what the article stated makes sense. The lack of a VTT hurt DDI and that was certainly meant to be a big part of their money strategy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7454937, member: 82106"] I think 'indie design' vs 'traditional design' is a meaningless distinction when people are having fun playing games. There's nothing inherent about either type of game which makes it more or less popular than the other. So, that part feels wrong to me. It may be that there were differences of opinion on the 4e team about exactly what game they were writing, that's possible and even likely. There may have been differences between the designers and the marketers, also likely. There may have been some thought of not wanting to go completely over into 'story now' without leaving the game capable of working in more traditional ways. We don't really know what exact discussions happened in that vein. I know that it IS a narrativistic game design, and a good game. I don't need to speculate on that! I think a lot of what we did in previous editions CAN be done in 4e. Its done a little bit differently is all. I ran plenty of scenarios that I had outlined as possibilities in my old 2e games using 4e. Its still D&D in many fundamental ways. I just thought Essentials was kind of a waste of time and resources that could have been better spent on other things. The guy harps on the VTT not materializing, but couldn't they have spent the money that went into Essentials on making it a reality? I mean, what people call 'flaws in 4e' seems more like just basic business mistakes that came back to bite WotC. Yeah, I think Essentials missed some key things about 4e and it wouldn't have worked out. They needed to go FURTHER with it if it was going to succeed, not try to regress, which is what Essentials is really about. Well, we had a LONG discussion of this in another thread, and I never saw anyone draw up a convincing picture for me as to how you would do that. I don't see where they did anything like that 'retroactively'. There's a lot of stuff in DMG1 which comes right out of classic narrativist game design and play toolbox. Its just not consistent and all clearly spelled out ABC there. DMG2 seems more reactive to me. It includes a lot of good advice for how to run the sort of weird 3-legged-dog that is the game you get when you take DMG1 literally. It makes that a MORE workable game, but the MOST workable configuration is, and thus would be, a story oriented one. I think there are reasons to doubt that 'story now' games will sustain robust product lines of adventures. OTOH 4e didn't feature a huge line of modules. It seemed like their strategy was more to make it easy for GMs to cook up stories. I'm not sure how that all fits together in the end. I do believe that some of what the article stated makes sense. The lack of a VTT hurt DDI and that was certainly meant to be a big part of their money strategy. [/QUOTE]
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