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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 7811663" data-attributes="member: 6801845">I've skipped a few pages ... and sorry if I helped start the whole "4E was bad" tangent.I'm not saying 4E was a bad game (although I admit I burned out on it, especially high level play), but to me it didn't feel like D&D.  I don't think that has anything to do with magic vs martial, it was the basic structure that changed.  I understand why they did it, they were trying to have better balance between classes.For me and several other people who played other editions there was just something missing.  These are just my personal observations, and observations of others that I played with.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">All the classes kind of played the same.  I'd argue that everyone became "supernatural" or maybe anime/cartoon like.  My fighter cast spells by another name.  He no longer felt like a mundane fighter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It was not as genre flexible.  You were kind of locked in to a certain type and style of play, there wasn't really much room to customize without a lot of work.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">They tried to codify too much.  Yes, the rules were more airtight but because of that there was a lack of spontaneity and freedom that seemed to always creep in.  I think in part we never felt like we could improvise actions that could be represented by powers.*</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Too many ongoing effects and conditions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Too much overhead.  Daily powers, encounter powers, at-will powers.  There was always that "have I played this card yet" feel to the game.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It always put the game mechanics front and center.  Encounters became "<s>Magic</s> D&D the Gathering" with <s>cards</s> powers being countered and your "deck" being your build.  </li> </ol>None of these things made it necessarily a bad game.  I'm not taking Essentials into account because by the time that came out it was too late.Compare that to other versions<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">There is a very different feel to different classes.  Personally I'd like a few more mundane options, but a Champion fighter is going to play differently than a wizard.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Much more flexibility to make really minor tweaks to the game that give it a different feel.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">In my experience the "loose" rules foster more creative solutions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Fewer ongoing conditions and effects.  It's rare that you ever have more than one ongoing condition on an individual creature for most games.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Less overhead unless you really want it.  Yes, I still need to track some stuff but now it's just "have I used my second wind yet" or "how many 3rd level sell slots do I have left" not "have I used that daily?  What about that minor action encounter."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Game mechanics stay out of the way of my story telling and support it when needed.  Usually.</li> </ol>Obviously 5E inherited bits and pieces from 4E and all previous editions.  No game is perfect, but to me it feels like an upgraded version of older editions not a different game with the cosmetic trappings of D&D.*honestly I was never able to quite put my finger on why we felt creativity was stifled in 4E, it was just a common complaint</blockquote>

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