Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What is the essence of D&D
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7811890" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I wish I could say that was an un-heard-of event.</p><p>The first year 4e was out, I had the bizarre experience of watching a player sit down at a 4e table, declare he was trying it for the very first time, choose a rogue, complain bitterly about being 'forced' to use a dagger, and just generally dragged the whole thing down. Twice. In two separate games, on two different days.</p><p></p><p>Guess I don't look too distinctive at a convention, or he might've recognized me and moderated his behavior, or at least changed up his initial spiel.</p><p></p><p>And, yeah, famously, books were burned.</p><p></p><p>The edition war went beyond a torrent of on-line nerd-rage. It was a toxic culture. Like any other form of bigotry, but all the more uncompromising because the subject was so trivial.</p><p></p><p>Some of it also became visible only in retrospect. A convention I used to go to was very cold to the idea when, in 2008, I submitted a proposal to run a short introductory game of the new edition - 4 players, 4 hours - as a gimmick. Too short. They'd never allow 4-hr games. I shelved the idea, but improv'd it in open gaming because there was interest, anyway (5 min prep, including re-skinning a monster because there were no water elementals the right level).</p><p>2014, I get an email from the same con - run a half-session (4 hr) game to introduce 5e and get the same credit as running a full session. Mind you, I was enthused about 5e and ran a bunch of them - converting In Search of the Unknown, Village of Homlet, Sunless Citadel, the first chapter of Council of Thieves, KotSf (shudder), and Twisting Halls, each to boiled-down, 4-hr 5e adventures. It was a blast. I was in an altered state of consciousness by Monday morning. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>2008, little disappointed, still ran a great game; 2014, excited, exhausted, had a great time … but, y'know, in retrospect, that was quite the change in attitude.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure which is worse, the digs at 4e in passing, or pretending it never happened?</p><p></p><p> I'm not sure I follow. Hussar & I have both pointed out that a lot of little things "DNA" made it from 4e to 5e. They're not things that made 4e 'great' (good at what it was good at - balanced, playable, genre emulation - I'm sure you can throw out a few Forge labels I'd rather not use), at least, not in the form they made it into 5e, but among them are many supposedly-intolerable concepts that, in the context of 5e (with The Primacy of Magic restored!), are now fine.</p><p></p><p>Oh, wait, I think I see what you mean: Yes, yes I am. I did the same thing to grognards grousing about 3.0, too. You get a complaint that the new edition sux because it lacks X, you point out that X is, in fact, right there, they get mad at you. I'm glad you have the patience to explain the synergies and emergent characteristics based on the subtle differences in how (or greater degrees to which) X (& Q & Y & Z) are /implemented/ in the old edition, don't arise in the new (again, if I'm getting the allusion).</p><p></p><p>I've just had to do it a /lot/ more since 2008, rarely with anyone showing the same kind of patience & expansion upon their issues as you're up for.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7811890, member: 996"] I wish I could say that was an un-heard-of event. The first year 4e was out, I had the bizarre experience of watching a player sit down at a 4e table, declare he was trying it for the very first time, choose a rogue, complain bitterly about being 'forced' to use a dagger, and just generally dragged the whole thing down. Twice. In two separate games, on two different days. Guess I don't look too distinctive at a convention, or he might've recognized me and moderated his behavior, or at least changed up his initial spiel. And, yeah, famously, books were burned. The edition war went beyond a torrent of on-line nerd-rage. It was a toxic culture. Like any other form of bigotry, but all the more uncompromising because the subject was so trivial. Some of it also became visible only in retrospect. A convention I used to go to was very cold to the idea when, in 2008, I submitted a proposal to run a short introductory game of the new edition - 4 players, 4 hours - as a gimmick. Too short. They'd never allow 4-hr games. I shelved the idea, but improv'd it in open gaming because there was interest, anyway (5 min prep, including re-skinning a monster because there were no water elementals the right level). 2014, I get an email from the same con - run a half-session (4 hr) game to introduce 5e and get the same credit as running a full session. Mind you, I was enthused about 5e and ran a bunch of them - converting In Search of the Unknown, Village of Homlet, Sunless Citadel, the first chapter of Council of Thieves, KotSf (shudder), and Twisting Halls, each to boiled-down, 4-hr 5e adventures. It was a blast. I was in an altered state of consciousness by Monday morning. ;) 2008, little disappointed, still ran a great game; 2014, excited, exhausted, had a great time … but, y'know, in retrospect, that was quite the change in attitude. I'm not sure which is worse, the digs at 4e in passing, or pretending it never happened? I'm not sure I follow. Hussar & I have both pointed out that a lot of little things "DNA" made it from 4e to 5e. They're not things that made 4e 'great' (good at what it was good at - balanced, playable, genre emulation - I'm sure you can throw out a few Forge labels I'd rather not use), at least, not in the form they made it into 5e, but among them are many supposedly-intolerable concepts that, in the context of 5e (with The Primacy of Magic restored!), are now fine. Oh, wait, I think I see what you mean: Yes, yes I am. I did the same thing to grognards grousing about 3.0, too. You get a complaint that the new edition sux because it lacks X, you point out that X is, in fact, right there, they get mad at you. I'm glad you have the patience to explain the synergies and emergent characteristics based on the subtle differences in how (or greater degrees to which) X (& Q & Y & Z) are /implemented/ in the old edition, don't arise in the new (again, if I'm getting the allusion). I've just had to do it a /lot/ more since 2008, rarely with anyone showing the same kind of patience & expansion upon their issues as you're up for. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What is the essence of D&D
Top