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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7814212" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>While 'pillar' was coined for the Next playtest, D&D has /always/ been accused of being too focused on combat. It was, afterall, a wargame, the combat chapter has generally been the largest (rivaled only by spells, which were super-powerful in combat), skills were virtually absent the first 25 years. 3.5 didn't much change that. Skills, yes, nice addition, good first step, but completely binary, everything was resolved by a single check - or, if really 'complex' a repeated check. 4e broke rituals out from combat spells, and introduced Skill Challenges which finally weighted non-combat encounters the same as combat, and gave them a resolution framework that could draw the whole party into a no-combat scene, and, less dramatically, group checks, which finally let a party perform whole-party, skill-based actions without virtually guaranteed failure. </p><p>5e didn't completely un-do all that, it re-integrated rituals back into the spell lists, but didn't have them use slots, and it did away Skill Challenges, but kept group checks, /and/ it added downtime, and has some rules for exploration & interaction that go beyond single-character/single-check pass/fail tests.</p><p></p><p>So, focus on combat was really up to the DM & his group, in 4e, moreso than any other prior ed, which, at least, 5e took a stab at, too.</p><p></p><p>Familiar from 3.5 - at least, it seemed like 3.5 combats often went that way for the group I played it with the most. I suppose it was lost once you got into 'rocket tag' territory. Conversely, I recall a lot of 'grind' in old-school combats that went south.</p><p></p><p> No restrictions, but fewer built-in benefits from combos like scry/buff/teleport, sure. Something else 5e hasn't entirely abandoned.</p><p>Prior ed's teleports were longer distance and less restricted than that specific, racial power. Aside from that, most pivotal effects like flight, invisibility, and long-distance/beyond l-o-s teleport were pushed to significantly /higher/ level.</p><p></p><p> Simplified square-counting, making faster/simpler combat.</p><p></p><p> There was significant siloing of combat & non-combat. What that did, was allow non-combat resources to be used more freely as such, and made it practical to greatly reduce the quantity of combat-available resources (spells in particular). </p><p></p><p> Very much so. Magic items may have ballooned in nominal price, but the utility they delivered was essentially base-line - the most critical, keeping up attack & defense, being easily replaced with Inherent Bonuses.</p><p></p><p>I cannot understand that attitude. But, hey, it's your attitude, 'tude at it in good health and enjoy your always-fresh-and-new games. I can see the appeal in that, too.</p><p></p><p>Maybe, if I live long enough, I'll become nostalgic for people hating on nostalgia?</p><p></p><p>Oh, it's not /hell/ without any nostalgia. Purgatory, maybe...</p><p></p><p>If the other one is 3e, yes, it's off whatever scale you're measuring the balance gulf between 4e & 5e against. 3e & 4e are, ironically, the outliers, balance-wise. 4e is often called 'balanced' or 'too balanced.' Both are exaggerations, IMHO.</p><p></p><p>"lore" to me suggests setting information & tie-ins. Or do we just mean fluff/flavor text? Either way, if they're not flexible, they can limit character concept/realization.</p><p></p><p>I can see how weightier out-of-combat resolution would give more opportunities for RP, since you're expanding the range of play.</p><p></p><p> Oh, that's starting to sound like "fiction first?"</p><p></p><p> OK, yeah, that sounds plausible. 'Presentation' always felt like an excuse to me, like most gamers either play the game at such a casual level they hardly interact with the presentation of the rules, or they dive so deep into the rules in search of pearls of system-mastery that they transcend the presentation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7814212, member: 996"] While 'pillar' was coined for the Next playtest, D&D has /always/ been accused of being too focused on combat. It was, afterall, a wargame, the combat chapter has generally been the largest (rivaled only by spells, which were super-powerful in combat), skills were virtually absent the first 25 years. 3.5 didn't much change that. Skills, yes, nice addition, good first step, but completely binary, everything was resolved by a single check - or, if really 'complex' a repeated check. 4e broke rituals out from combat spells, and introduced Skill Challenges which finally weighted non-combat encounters the same as combat, and gave them a resolution framework that could draw the whole party into a no-combat scene, and, less dramatically, group checks, which finally let a party perform whole-party, skill-based actions without virtually guaranteed failure. 5e didn't completely un-do all that, it re-integrated rituals back into the spell lists, but didn't have them use slots, and it did away Skill Challenges, but kept group checks, /and/ it added downtime, and has some rules for exploration & interaction that go beyond single-character/single-check pass/fail tests. So, focus on combat was really up to the DM & his group, in 4e, moreso than any other prior ed, which, at least, 5e took a stab at, too. Familiar from 3.5 - at least, it seemed like 3.5 combats often went that way for the group I played it with the most. I suppose it was lost once you got into 'rocket tag' territory. Conversely, I recall a lot of 'grind' in old-school combats that went south. No restrictions, but fewer built-in benefits from combos like scry/buff/teleport, sure. Something else 5e hasn't entirely abandoned. Prior ed's teleports were longer distance and less restricted than that specific, racial power. Aside from that, most pivotal effects like flight, invisibility, and long-distance/beyond l-o-s teleport were pushed to significantly /higher/ level. Simplified square-counting, making faster/simpler combat. There was significant siloing of combat & non-combat. What that did, was allow non-combat resources to be used more freely as such, and made it practical to greatly reduce the quantity of combat-available resources (spells in particular). Very much so. Magic items may have ballooned in nominal price, but the utility they delivered was essentially base-line - the most critical, keeping up attack & defense, being easily replaced with Inherent Bonuses. I cannot understand that attitude. But, hey, it's your attitude, 'tude at it in good health and enjoy your always-fresh-and-new games. I can see the appeal in that, too. Maybe, if I live long enough, I'll become nostalgic for people hating on nostalgia? Oh, it's not /hell/ without any nostalgia. Purgatory, maybe... If the other one is 3e, yes, it's off whatever scale you're measuring the balance gulf between 4e & 5e against. 3e & 4e are, ironically, the outliers, balance-wise. 4e is often called 'balanced' or 'too balanced.' Both are exaggerations, IMHO. "lore" to me suggests setting information & tie-ins. Or do we just mean fluff/flavor text? Either way, if they're not flexible, they can limit character concept/realization. I can see how weightier out-of-combat resolution would give more opportunities for RP, since you're expanding the range of play. Oh, that's starting to sound like "fiction first?" OK, yeah, that sounds plausible. 'Presentation' always felt like an excuse to me, like most gamers either play the game at such a casual level they hardly interact with the presentation of the rules, or they dive so deep into the rules in search of pearls of system-mastery that they transcend the presentation. [/QUOTE]
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