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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7814350" data-attributes="member: 22779">I was going back and forth as to whether to weigh back in or not.  But, what the hell.  Might as well.Ok, I'm going to try to lay this out as clearly as I can.  Evidence of Primacy of Magic Being Essential to D&D.  ((Caveat - being essential to D&D does not preclude it from being present or even essential in other games.  Just that without the primacy of magic, it no longer is D&D))1.  The perception of 4e D&D not being D&D.  While there are arguably additional factors as to why some might perceive 4e as not being part of D&D, one of those factors unarguably IS the fact that magic was made less "magical".  There are numerous quotes, even in this thread, that support this.  2.  Every edition of D&D has increased the caster's options and efficacy.  A Basic/Expert Magic User had a choice of 12 spells/spell level and only 6 or 7 levels of spells.  A cleric had 6.  An AD&D MU has more options at 1st level than existed in the entirety of Basic/Expert, never minding cleric and druids.  2e added to this list and added specialist wizards which had more spells per day.  3e added to the list, added stat bonuses to all casters for per day spells, AND added easily craftable magic items like scrolls and wands.  5e has removed the memorization requirements for casters, granted them more spells per day, granted them unlimited cantrips and added in Rituals which are unlimited as well (although costing in time).  At no point, other than in 4e, was a caster reduced in options from the edition previous.3.  The perception that anything that cannot be explained must be done with magic.  Thus, the example of a rogue jumping using only skill vs a wizard using a Jump spell.  A rogue jumping further than an Olympic athlete is verbotten while a wizard is perfectly acceptable.  Or, a rogue falling off a cliff using acrobatics to not take damage is also impossible, while a wizard doing it at 1st level is perfectly acceptable.  So on and so forth.4.  Simple word count.  This hasn't been brought up, I don't think, but, even in 3e, you could write everything in the PHB that applied to a fighter on a dozen pages at most.  Just the spell descriptions, not even the rules regarding spells, in my 3.5 PHB is over a hundred pages long.  Or, put it another way, it takes more page count to describe all the spell options in 3.5 D&D than the entirety of the Basic/Expert ruleset. (an exaggeration, true, but, not much of one)  Even in 5e, which tones down magic from 3e, still has 70 PAGES of spell effects.  That's still longer than the entire Basic ruleset.  And, of course, this does not count magic items.5.  Every edition has added more magical goodies to each of the classes.  Paladins and Rangers in AD&D gained spells at what 8th level (ish).  In 3e, that went down to about 4th level.  Now, they gain spells from 2nd level.   We have flying barbarians, monks capable of directly casting spells, and, of course, the hybrid archetypes which grant casting to fighters and rogues.  There is no longer any class in the game that cannot gain spell casting if the player chooses.  So, in conclusion.  It's not just about the perception of 4e not being D&D.  That was simply one piece of evidence.  If we want to look at what is essential to people for something to be considered D&D, then, well, it's not unreasonable to look at what isn't considered D&D.  The notions that this is somehow some sort of edition warring or whatnot are perceptions that, IMO, exist more in the critic's mind than in what's actually been presented.  It ignores the other evidence which aren't related at all to 4e but on a recognition of trends within the design of D&D.  Like I said way back when, many pages ago, it's no secret why the 5e development team made 5e the way it is.  It's not a huge cognitive leap to see that the magic level of D&D has risen every edition.  Are other things essential to D&D?  Quite possibly.  I'm not arguing that they aren't.  I AM arguing that the Primacy of Magic is one of the main ingredients of D&D and without that, any game would be perceived as "not D&D".</blockquote>

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