Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What is the essence of D&D
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7815063" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I think I may have gotten a little too complicated and over-analytical with the Primacy of Magic...</p><p> Important & pervasive, in this context, are opposed. Magic was less important in 4e, because there were fewer absolutely vital things (like restoring hps in combat) that /only/ magic could do, and because one of the two traditional source of magic, items, was not just reduced in power, but made so ubiquitous and fungible that they became unimportant (and that can probably go for rituals, too, which became much more adventure-enabling, to the point that the DM would provide a ritual the party 'needed' to continue the adventure.)</p><p></p><p> Relative to the prior ed PH1, with 11 character classes, 7 of them with spellcasting ability (64%), 8 (73%) if you include any (SU)supernatural powers, at all, the 4e PH1 had 8 classes, 4 of them with spellcasting and/or supernatural abilities, 4 without. 50/50. Now, if you include supplements, 3.5 added the Scout & Knight as non-supernatural, and myriad supernatural classes (not to mention PrCs), while 4e added /only/ supernatural classes, and mostly just subclasses in Essentials, so it would've gotten there eventually. </p><p>Frankly, though, ubiquity is the enemy or importance, so it'd've gone even worse for 4e if it had gone all-supernatural.</p><p></p><p>Not true, until relatively recently, with the advent of Urban Fantasy & Harry Potter and the like, fantasy generally included both some magic (mostly in the hands of villains), usually without specific n/day requirements and not too varied a portfolio for any single practitioner, and extraordinary (superhuman, unrealistic) feats for the (typically martial) hero. The cliché Conan pastiche with the barbarian fighting atop a pile of slain foes, for instance, completely implausible both in terms of getting the bodies piled up & fighting atop such an unstable surface, and in terms of somehow persuading enemies to climb said pile only to be added to it.</p><p></p><p>That's a partial articulation of the Primacy of Magic, yes. Magic faces at least some notional limitations (fewer with each passing edition, it seems), in return for being more potent when it really counts, making it more important than always-available mundane alternatives.</p><p></p><p> In 4e, of course, that balance-of-imbalances mechanism was unnecessary, AEDU meant every PC had a comparable number/power of limited & at-will resources. Which was a huge part of the problem. </p><p>In 5e, the balance-of-imbalances formula remains, just with casters thanks to at-will cantrips, having a higher at-will baseline, and, purportedly solves for 6-8 encounters & 2-3 short rests between long rests. That said, at-will cantrips are mildly contrary to the Primacy of Magic, because they may be viewed as insufficiently superior to mundane alternatives (they don't run out of ammo and have a greater range of effects & damage types, but their actual DPR is less).</p><p></p><p>It quite reversed the trend of adding 'more magical goodies' to each class. It stripped the Ranger of his magical goodies, entirely, spread the Druids goodies over three sub-classes, introduced a new class with none, gave none to the Fighter & Rogue, and bumped full-casters down from dozens of spells/day with either the ability to change those spell up every day, or great control over how often they could re-cast a give spell, to 4/day & 4/encounter, each exactly once. In opposition to that, Barbarians became Primal. That's about it.</p><p></p><p> "A Major Essence of D&D" works. I'd imagine D&D with no magic, and all, would be NOT-D&D, for instance. So it'd be fair to say the Primacy of Magic could be necessary but not sufficient, to make something D&D. You could paste D&D on the cover of Ars Magica, for instance, and, great game, all-in when it comes to the Primacy of Magic that it may be, I suspect it wouldn't pass for D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7815063, member: 996"] I think I may have gotten a little too complicated and over-analytical with the Primacy of Magic... Important & pervasive, in this context, are opposed. Magic was less important in 4e, because there were fewer absolutely vital things (like restoring hps in combat) that /only/ magic could do, and because one of the two traditional source of magic, items, was not just reduced in power, but made so ubiquitous and fungible that they became unimportant (and that can probably go for rituals, too, which became much more adventure-enabling, to the point that the DM would provide a ritual the party 'needed' to continue the adventure.) Relative to the prior ed PH1, with 11 character classes, 7 of them with spellcasting ability (64%), 8 (73%) if you include any (SU)supernatural powers, at all, the 4e PH1 had 8 classes, 4 of them with spellcasting and/or supernatural abilities, 4 without. 50/50. Now, if you include supplements, 3.5 added the Scout & Knight as non-supernatural, and myriad supernatural classes (not to mention PrCs), while 4e added /only/ supernatural classes, and mostly just subclasses in Essentials, so it would've gotten there eventually. Frankly, though, ubiquity is the enemy or importance, so it'd've gone even worse for 4e if it had gone all-supernatural. Not true, until relatively recently, with the advent of Urban Fantasy & Harry Potter and the like, fantasy generally included both some magic (mostly in the hands of villains), usually without specific n/day requirements and not too varied a portfolio for any single practitioner, and extraordinary (superhuman, unrealistic) feats for the (typically martial) hero. The cliché Conan pastiche with the barbarian fighting atop a pile of slain foes, for instance, completely implausible both in terms of getting the bodies piled up & fighting atop such an unstable surface, and in terms of somehow persuading enemies to climb said pile only to be added to it. That's a partial articulation of the Primacy of Magic, yes. Magic faces at least some notional limitations (fewer with each passing edition, it seems), in return for being more potent when it really counts, making it more important than always-available mundane alternatives. In 4e, of course, that balance-of-imbalances mechanism was unnecessary, AEDU meant every PC had a comparable number/power of limited & at-will resources. Which was a huge part of the problem. In 5e, the balance-of-imbalances formula remains, just with casters thanks to at-will cantrips, having a higher at-will baseline, and, purportedly solves for 6-8 encounters & 2-3 short rests between long rests. That said, at-will cantrips are mildly contrary to the Primacy of Magic, because they may be viewed as insufficiently superior to mundane alternatives (they don't run out of ammo and have a greater range of effects & damage types, but their actual DPR is less). It quite reversed the trend of adding 'more magical goodies' to each class. It stripped the Ranger of his magical goodies, entirely, spread the Druids goodies over three sub-classes, introduced a new class with none, gave none to the Fighter & Rogue, and bumped full-casters down from dozens of spells/day with either the ability to change those spell up every day, or great control over how often they could re-cast a give spell, to 4/day & 4/encounter, each exactly once. In opposition to that, Barbarians became Primal. That's about it. "A Major Essence of D&D" works. I'd imagine D&D with no magic, and all, would be NOT-D&D, for instance. So it'd be fair to say the Primacy of Magic could be necessary but not sufficient, to make something D&D. You could paste D&D on the cover of Ars Magica, for instance, and, great game, all-in when it comes to the Primacy of Magic that it may be, I suspect it wouldn't pass for D&D. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What is the essence of D&D
Top