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Message: <blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 3157455" data-attributes="member: 1165">A 15th-level dwarven cleric social PC with Charisma mod of +0 can have 18 ranks. That's a +18 bonus right there. They need to roll a 12, which isn't that hard, and that assumes the negotiating PC didn't come up with a good offer (one good enough to give a bonus). A bard would probably have a much higher Charisma - assuming no items, no skill-boosting feats and human or elven (rather than half-elven) they could easily have a Charisma of 18 by that level, giving a modifier of +22 (they pass more than half the time).They will if the GM isn't making NPCs much higher level than PCs.What are you giving up for the orange? It's an orange. It's not important.It's a bit like spellcasting. At higher levels, only high level spellcasters can cast offensive spells (with saves) effectively against high level opponents. A 2nd-level bard/10th-level fighter shouldn't expect his 1st-level spells to work against high level opponents, nor should a 2nd-level bard/10th-level fighter with a Diplomacy modifier of +10 expect to sway important high level NPCs all that often. And even then, they can try to get a deal from a lower level minion - they won't get as much good stuff, but it'll be easier.Furthermore, there's a reason the examples are so important. A high level NPC can give you something good - passage, information, or resources. You need to find out what they want and offer it to them; you can get as much as a +10 bonus doing that, and a +5 bonus reasonably. You can even Bluff to make a bad deal sound better (which is almost like getting a bonus to your Diplomacy check).But the problem isn't necessarily PCs treating Diplomacy like mind control (it isn't always bad players, or even min-maxed PCs). Diplomacy DCs don't scale in core rules, which means after some levels the PC will never fail a Diplomacy check for something not too unreasonable. If they can't fail, then where's the challenge?</blockquote>

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