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<blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 6687048" data-attributes="member: 6786252">I think the problem here is that you are misunderstanding what a subclass is.&nbsp; Subclasses aren't generic customizable things; they're specializations.&nbsp; The whole point of the subclass is to specialize in something.&nbsp; Anyways, I still say Thief for a &quot;generic&quot; rogue because the Thief's features all just make you better at the general class things.&nbsp; You're faster at being a pick pocket (general rogue thing), you're faster at climbing (acrobatics is a rogue thing), Fast Hands lets you use caltrops and smoke bombs faster, and so on. You're just like a regular rogue, but FASTER at stuff.&nbsp; Assassin, Swashbuckler, and Arcane Trickster all add stuff on, or new variations to the class.&nbsp; Thief is all about being better at the regular stuff the class offers.&nbsp; Therefore, its the closest thing to a &quot;generic subclass.&quot;&nbsp; If you want&nbsp; someone who absolutely specializes in new and fancy ways to be an acrobat, then that'd be a new subclass; and they wouldn't be a generalist.&nbsp; ((As as aside - Use Magic Device is awesome for a temple raider, Indiana Jones type - you get to use whatever magic artifacts you find, whatever they are))&nbsp;Steeldragon said backstabbing, not assassinating. There's a difference.&nbsp; Backstabbing and Sneak Attacks are just glorified dirty fighting.&nbsp; Which is the rogue's trademark.&nbsp; And, no, burglary isn't a requirement, but then, you're not required to take Pick Pocket as a skill.&nbsp; Isn't that what you were asking for?&nbsp; You've got quick hands, and you'd be fast at pickpocketing... if you knew how.&nbsp; But you don't know, so you don't steal.&nbsp; But, because pick pocketing is an iconic part of the class with lots of history?&nbsp; You have potential access to it.&nbsp; Just like you have potential access to stealth, but its not necessarily a requirement.&nbsp;Umm... this isn't part of a generic rogue.&nbsp; This is an alchemist, or perhaps wizard.&nbsp; At the bare minimum, its a rather unique background.&nbsp;You're too hung up on the names.&nbsp; A thief doesn't even need to be a thief.&nbsp; Could just as easily be a spy, an acrobat, or a temple explorer.&nbsp; That's the default story, but its just as easy to write your own.&nbsp;Yes.&nbsp; In&nbsp; fact, it can be all of them at once.&nbsp; &nbsp;That's because people wanted more baked in fluff inside the game.&nbsp; And, if that's your complaint?&nbsp; Just remove it.&nbsp; Thief subclass has all this &quot;basic rogue stuff&quot; you're listing without forcing you to actually steal anything.&nbsp; Its -called- the Thief, not because you have to steal anything, but the rogue actually was called the Thief in past editions and other games.&nbsp; Just like the original name of the Paladin is the Cavalier (and thus, the Oath of Devotion &quot;generic paladin&quot; is called the cavalier).&nbsp;Why would you want less mechanics or flavor?&nbsp; And what exactly is missing here, or not added in?&nbsp; I have to wonder if you have a different idea of what a rogue is compared to me and the others?&nbsp;Rangers are actually the ones who are often called scouts - in fact, ranger variants usually get the name Scout.&nbsp; Wizards are the archetypical D&amp;D academic, though with backgrounds we can have others.&nbsp; &quot;Experts&quot; come in all forms - an expert of... what, exactly, may I ask?&nbsp; None of these are particularly roguish.&nbsp;Because you don't have to be an Assassin to be an assassin.&nbsp; Anyone can assassinate.&nbsp; The Assassin just specializes in it in a way no one else does.&nbsp; And that's why we have the subclass - for those people who want to be a specialist.&nbsp; Thief is there for those who want to just specialize in the generic traits of the base class.&nbsp; Assassin, Arcane Trickster, and Swashbuckler adds on new traits and variations that the base class just can't replicate.&nbsp; &nbsp;The base class without a subclass.&nbsp;&nbsp; That is the generic &quot;build your own rogue.&quot;&nbsp; Thief is the class for making you better at those generic base class things.&nbsp; I really think the problem here is that you have a misunderstanding of either 1) what the point of subclasses are, or 2) what a generic rogue encompasses.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mephista, post: 6687048, member: 6786252"] I think the problem here is that you are misunderstanding what a subclass is. Subclasses aren't generic customizable things; they're specializations. The whole point of the subclass is to specialize in something. Anyways, I still say Thief for a "generic" rogue because the Thief's features all just make you better at the general class things. You're faster at being a pick pocket (general rogue thing), you're faster at climbing (acrobatics is a rogue thing), Fast Hands lets you use caltrops and smoke bombs faster, and so on. You're just like a regular rogue, but FASTER at stuff. Assassin, Swashbuckler, and Arcane Trickster all add stuff on, or new variations to the class. Thief is all about being better at the regular stuff the class offers. Therefore, its the closest thing to a "generic subclass." If you want someone who absolutely specializes in new and fancy ways to be an acrobat, then that'd be a new subclass; and they wouldn't be a generalist. ((As as aside - Use Magic Device is awesome for a temple raider, Indiana Jones type - you get to use whatever magic artifacts you find, whatever they are)) Steeldragon said backstabbing, not assassinating. There's a difference. Backstabbing and Sneak Attacks are just glorified dirty fighting. Which is the rogue's trademark. And, no, burglary isn't a requirement, but then, you're not required to take Pick Pocket as a skill. Isn't that what you were asking for? You've got quick hands, and you'd be fast at pickpocketing... if you knew how. But you don't know, so you don't steal. But, because pick pocketing is an iconic part of the class with lots of history? You have potential access to it. Just like you have potential access to stealth, but its not necessarily a requirement. Umm... this isn't part of a generic rogue. This is an alchemist, or perhaps wizard. At the bare minimum, its a rather unique background. You're too hung up on the names. A thief doesn't even need to be a thief. Could just as easily be a spy, an acrobat, or a temple explorer. That's the default story, but its just as easy to write your own. Yes. In fact, it can be all of them at once. That's because people wanted more baked in fluff inside the game. And, if that's your complaint? Just remove it. Thief subclass has all this "basic rogue stuff" you're listing without forcing you to actually steal anything. Its -called- the Thief, not because you have to steal anything, but the rogue actually was called the Thief in past editions and other games. Just like the original name of the Paladin is the Cavalier (and thus, the Oath of Devotion "generic paladin" is called the cavalier). Why would you want less mechanics or flavor? And what exactly is missing here, or not added in? I have to wonder if you have a different idea of what a rogue is compared to me and the others? Rangers are actually the ones who are often called scouts - in fact, ranger variants usually get the name Scout. Wizards are the archetypical D&D academic, though with backgrounds we can have others. "Experts" come in all forms - an expert of... what, exactly, may I ask? None of these are particularly roguish. Because you don't have to be an Assassin to be an assassin. Anyone can assassinate. The Assassin just [I]specializes[/I] in it in a way no one else does. And that's why we have the subclass - for those people who want to be a [I]specialist.[/I] Thief is there for those who want to just specialize in the generic traits of the base class. Assassin, Arcane Trickster, and Swashbuckler adds on new traits and variations that the base class just can't replicate. The base class without a subclass. That is the generic "build your own rogue." Thief is the class for making you better at those generic base class things. I really think the problem here is that you have a misunderstanding of either 1) what the point of subclasses are, or 2) what a generic rogue encompasses. [/QUOTE]

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