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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 3299735" data-attributes="member: 326">Hi Wolv0rine mate! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I guarantee you couldn't teach a 'noob' to play D&D in 5 minutes let alone teach them to DM a game in 5 minutes.So when someone goes into a shop and says "I want to play D&D, what do I need to buy", the store clerk says "You need the 320 page Players Handbok, 320 page Dungeon Master's Guide and the 320 page Monster Manual. $90 dollars please. You can come down to the store on Thursday nights and either watch or join in a game, it will take a few hours to pick it up."Or (Scenario #2)The store clerk says, "You could buy the (new 4th Edition) Dungeons & Dragons boardgame (it only costs one third as much as the books). $40 dollars please. We have one of the boxes open, I can show you how to play in a few minutes." You have already made the assumption they are a player - what if they want to play the game with their friends, none of which have ever played before? Someone needs to read all the rules, then the players need to be prepped on all the relevant rules. NOT THE SKILL SYSTEM! AAAARRRGGGHHH!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> Someone needs to read it, and understand it, and then design their own adventures (there are none in the core rulesbooks). New players need someone to take them through it.The difference is that they are stories, not RULES which need to be learnt.Which means you are 'rubber-ducked' if you don't have someone there to teach you.In the 'early days' the rules were far less demanding.What I am suggesting is that if you start with the basics you can ADD optonal rule upon rule to your hearts content. But if you start with 960 pages of non-optional rulebooks, you alienate casual gamers (and therefore the bulk of your potential audience).If Gary Gygax' books were so verbose how come 3rd Edition rulebooks have twice as many pages!?The current rules are FAR more time consuming.No. YOU have lost flexibility in the pursuit of gamers. Once you have the bare bones in place you can easily add new features to make the game more diverse. But you can't so easily strip rules away.Oddly enough Ryan (Dancey) linked to an interesting article about gamer demographics in the other thread in General Discussion.<a href="http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html" target="_blank">http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html</a>Me too.But will 4th Edition be a sexy enough mistress to tease you away from your wife?If 3rd Edition is Kate Beckinsale and 3.5 Edition is Kate Beckinsale dressed in the black leather gear from Underworld, what does 4th Edition have to be to make me cheat on her?A packed house at the Playboy Mansion?There is no reason why that would have to change.As a game designer myself I dream of the time when statblocks could be done as easily as 1st Ed.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> Different spell lists, but not necessarily a different spell table.In fact to be honest I don't even agree with seperate spell lists. Personally I think there should just be white (divine) and black (arcane) magic, with spellcasters of one type allowed to cast spells from the other at half their spell level.This thread is about the NEXT BIG THING. What we are proposing IS the redefinement of D&D.I have been saying all along, a pen & paper 4th edition with some rules changes is a waste of time.But then how is that limitation any different from the limitation of having 'x' amount of monsters in the Monster Manual?Oddly enough I don't own a single D&D mini.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> ...yet.Have you seen some of the D&D minis - they are pretty cool!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Thats why I have been arguing that the boardgame is more important. Its the successor to the book format. The online experience is something different altogether. But it could be cool in its own right. I like the idea of virtual gaming in homebrewed worlds.You can cut that problem out with X-box live. There would be RuleBOOKS and Adventure BOOKS within the boardgame. I'm not saying we abandon the written word altogether. All the 'gaming' stores I know are multimedia, usually comics, videogames and rpg stuff.True. 3rd Edition had a number of advantages over 2nd Ed. (Remember also that 2nd Ed was basically 1.25 Ed.). Firstly it had a 15 year gap. Secondly it was full colour, glossy pages - it looks great. Thirdly it addressed a lot of the things people wanted to see (play as monstrous races for example). 4th Edition would have a 4 year gap (from 3.5), look no better than 3rd Edition and has very few major elements people debate over which haven't already been covered as optional rules in one book or another - sure, people debate over minutiae. But 4th Edition will not be the major difference in either time, aesthetics or rules changes.I just don't see it working this time around.But would you alienate 3rd Edition with another pen & paper edition?I mean with the jump to 3rd Edition you could at least make the excuse you were targeting the next generation of gamers. Not so with a 2008 4th Edition. All you would be doing is alienating gamers who have purchased dozens of 3rd Edition books.  What I am proposing (in terms of content and quality) would make HeroQuest look like the Wooden Box D&D Rules compared to my D&D 3.5 Ed. I admit the current D&D Boardgame is like HeroQuest 1.5 Ed. But I have studied and isolated all the weaknesses of the boardgame format and I believe that I have all the answers (I should just point out that I have kept a number of things to myself and only spoken of the basics herein).  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> I think that under my design auspices you would EASILY sell 1 million boxed sets in the first year, possibly ten times that many. You could have D&D in every home. How? Easy - themed game boxes. Don't like the sound of Dungeons & Dragons? What about Dungeons & Dinosaurs, Dungeons & Pirates, Dungeons & Ninjas, Dungeons & Vampires, Dungeons & Drow.Can't get the Harry Potter license? Who cares, lets bring out a Dungeons & Wizards (Wizard's Guild) set.Transformers movie coming out? Dungeons & Robots (remember that Expedition to the Barrier Peaks module).Go for nostalgia, Dungeons & Harryhausen, boxed set(s) featuring his heroes & monsters, perhaps a Sinbad set and a Greek Myth set.Videogame homage, Dungeons & Halo.I draw the line at Dungeons & Pop Idol...then again.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> If WotC want anymore 'free' ideas they can email me. I've only scratced the surface.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> When was the last time you played 1st/2nd Edition? One funny aside...in my current research I read a HeroQuest review where the reviewer in question kept being turned down by his group in his request to play as the Bookcase...which I thought was pretty cool!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Dare I ask, what is 'Merrick's Law of Minis'?What I am proposing could be so much more than both.</blockquote>

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