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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8234310" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Its not an exact binary, but it is absolutely a fine line between players being Protagonized and Deprotagonized. Consider Imaro's question above.My Life With Master is a predefined premise/set-up with specific constraints on the stage for the conflict:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You need a bad guy who everyone creates together (this is the protagonist).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You need a village that is under his/her thumb.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You need pathetic lackeys (the PCs) that do the bad guy's bidding and interact with the village (until they do not).</li> </ul>Now (a) why is this not a Railroad and (b) why is this deeply Protagonistic play.  Its because:1 - The players dictate the volitional force of the play (which manifests as Dramatic Need...this is NOT the premise of play...premise is something different).2 - Conflict framing is entirely about the evolution (development or erosion) of this volitional force.3 - Conflict framing + PC build + decision-point + resolution mechanic + character evolution feedback loop scheme (machinery of play) is set up to test if that volitional force can be wrested.4 - Through the integration of all of the above, the through line of play is always different, always coherently addresses the premise of play, and always tests volitional force (or Dramatic Need).[HR][/HR]So to look at the above [USER=48965]@Imaro[/USER] and answer your question, play will be more or less Protagonizing depending upon the below continuums:* Players dictate volitional force of play < > Players do not dictate volitional force of play ** Dramatic Need foregrounded via conflict framing < > Dramatic Need backgrounded via conflict framing ** The machinery of play transparently evolves the trajectory of play < > Some extra-machinery force transparently or opaquely evolves the trajectory of play ** Does the integration of all of the above always (i) lead to a dynamic through line of play, (ii) coherently addresses the premise of play, and (iii) tests the dictated volitional force < > little or none of (i), (ii), (iii) *The further you go toward the left of each of the above 4, the more Protagonizing Play is.  The further you go toward the right of each of the above 4, the more Deprotagonizing Play is. Here is an example of maximized Deprotagonizing for reference:GM:  "We're going to play a D&D game about dragon slaying and saving a kingdom!  Here are your characters <hands over PC sheets randomly>!"Later, in play (session 3)...Player:  "My Druid has sworn a vow to end an unnatural menace.  There hasn't been anything unnatural so far.  You said there is a forest fire?  I'll bet the dragon's emissary wizard summoned fire elementals to threaten the kingdom!  I shapechange into a wolf to sprint into the forest and battle the unnatural menace."GM:  "Nah...remember?...you saw a stroke of lightning hit the forest?  I mean I guess maybe the Wizard could have caused that...but the fire brigade has it anyway.  Don't worry about.  Ok, back to parley with the King's Guard."Later, play...GM:  <Thinking to themselves> Crap, the players took out the dragon so quickly because the combat system is too damn swingy...screw this...and I mean, really...this whole trope was boring 2 sessions ago...  "Just when it appears that your sword blow has felled the dragon, the beast discorporates to mist which consumes everything around you...the haze lifts and you find yourself and your companions hanging from the rafters, hogtied upside down over a roiling cauldron, a Night Hag leering at you hungrily as she approaches!  You've awaken from a dream!  A stupor she has placed you in!  What do you do!OPERATION MAXIMUM DEPROTAGONIZATION COMPLETE</blockquote>

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