Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8240005" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Hey Cadence.&nbsp; Glad that was helpful.What you're talking about above is &quot;Skilled Play&quot; as a play priority and &quot;Follow the Rules&quot; as a play priority.&nbsp; You can have a game that isn't Skilled Play that has Follow the Rules as a priority but is more muted on the &quot;Skilled Play&quot; priority (even if it has it).&nbsp; My Life With Master and Dogs in the Vineyard can both be played skillfully but Skilled Play (as a priority) is more muted than in another &quot;Follow the Rules&quot; game like Moldvay Basic D&amp;D or D&amp;D 4e or Blades in the Dark (where Skilled Play is extremely important in those games).Any game where Skilled Play is a big priority or THE APEX priority of play (Moldvay Basic D&amp;D), you MUST Follow the Rules.&nbsp; If a GM goes into one of those games and fudges dice and/or results and/or deploys Force (this is a technique used by GMs which wrests the trajectory of play from players to the GM by rendering their meaningful decision points irrelevant), things go &quot;pear-shaped&quot; because that is a strict (and overwhelmingly deceptive) violation of the ethos of play.So you've got 2 problems; cheating and deception.&nbsp; People don't like that.Not all TTRPGs are like this and not all forms of D&amp;D.&nbsp; In fact, I would say that the most common form of D&amp;D (and the one that 5e pushes toward) is a &quot;Storyteller&quot; form of D&amp;D where the GM is (a) EXPECTED to control the trajectory of play to (b) ensure an &quot;exciting, memorable story&quot; and this is overwhelmingly through (c) heavily curating/tailoring play (while playing) by way of (d) heavy-handed framing + the deployment of Force (which includes fudging, ignoring, or changing outcomes).In that sort of game, its built-in that &quot;GM as Storyteller&quot; is a mandate and &quot;Tell an Exciting, Memorable Story&quot; is the apex priority of play.&nbsp; If following the rules doesn't serve that end and players playing skillfully doesn't serve that end....well, Follow the Rules and Skilled Play become subordinated.&nbsp; So players should understand that going in.&nbsp; It isn't cheating or deception for the GM to do those things.&nbsp; Its &quot;doing their job.&quot;The problem D&amp;D has historically had (since Dragonlance and AD&amp;D 2e really introduced this as a mainstream priority of play) is that designers/culture haven't been forthright and transparent about the interactions of these things.&nbsp; How the implications of Force and &quot;The Golden Rule&quot; completely subvert Skilled Play.&nbsp; So that has led to a lot of incoherent play or incoherent expectations at the table and a lot of downstream hard feelings as a byproduct.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8240005, member: 6696971"] Hey Cadence. Glad that was helpful. What you're talking about above is "Skilled Play" as a play priority and "Follow the Rules" as a play priority. You can have a game that isn't Skilled Play that has Follow the Rules as a priority but is more muted on the "Skilled Play" priority (even if it has it). My Life With Master and Dogs in the Vineyard can both be played skillfully but Skilled Play (as a priority) is more muted than in another "Follow the Rules" game like Moldvay Basic D&D or D&D 4e or Blades in the Dark (where Skilled Play is extremely important in those games). Any game where Skilled Play is a big priority or THE APEX priority of play (Moldvay Basic D&D), you MUST Follow the Rules. If a GM goes into one of those games and fudges dice and/or results and/or deploys Force (this is a technique used by GMs which wrests the trajectory of play from players to the GM by rendering their meaningful decision points irrelevant), things go "pear-shaped" because that is a strict (and overwhelmingly deceptive) violation of the ethos of play. So you've got 2 problems; cheating and deception. People don't like that. Not all TTRPGs are like this and not all forms of D&D. In fact, I would say that the most common form of D&D (and the one that 5e pushes toward) is a "Storyteller" form of D&D where the GM is (a) EXPECTED to control the trajectory of play to (b) ensure an "exciting, memorable story" and this is overwhelmingly through (c) heavily curating/tailoring play (while playing) by way of (d) heavy-handed framing + the deployment of Force (which includes fudging, ignoring, or changing outcomes). In that sort of game, its built-in that "GM as Storyteller" is a mandate and "Tell an Exciting, Memorable Story" is the apex priority of play. If following the rules doesn't serve that end and players playing skillfully doesn't serve that end....well, Follow the Rules and Skilled Play become subordinated. So players should understand that going in. It isn't cheating or deception for the GM to do those things. Its "doing their job." The problem D&D has historically had (since Dragonlance and AD&D 2e really introduced this as a mainstream priority of play) is that designers/culture haven't been forthright and transparent about the interactions of these things. How the implications of Force and "The Golden Rule" completely subvert Skilled Play. So that has led to a lot of incoherent play or incoherent expectations at the table and a lot of downstream hard feelings as a byproduct. [/QUOTE]

Verification