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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8240961" data-attributes="member: 6696971">My position on 5e is that its default orientation is extremely at-tension with Protagonistic Play.  There are many reasons for this up to and including:* GM as Storyteller is mandate (have fun and create a memorable story is the paramount play priority) and all of the latitude that comes with that.* Ignore/change the rules if necessary to facilitate "fun" is a major play priority rather than Follow the Rules as a play priority.* Opaque, GM-facing action resolution (by design).* The intersection of the 3 of those creates not just a hospitable environment for Force and the subversion of Protagonstic Play...but it encourages it (and you can clearly see it in the adventures/APs for the game).  This is just a simple matter of design.* The extremely wobbly CR/Encounter building mechanics (borne on the back of building top-down from the Adventuring Day rather than bottom-up from the individual Encounter Unit).  This was something I pushed hard against in the playtest because I was certain exactly where it would lead (and it has...and most of the people who pushed back against me then are now aggressively taking my position 6.5 years later).  This coupled with the 4 things above leads to serious GM intercession in moments of play, and, through that, the overall trajectory of play.* The reward cycle and structures of play not being set up to promote and reward Protagonistic Play.  Where are the player-authored Quests as xp?  Where is the IBFT fulfillment as xp?  The IBFT > Inspiration cycle and economy is not quite toothless, but it is relatively EXTREMELY meek.  And with no sense of irony at all, you see the overwhelming % of GM/table testimonials say "yeah, I just ignore that crap entirely."  They do that because its meek and not deeply integrated and almost surely because it wrests control of the trajectory of play from the AP/metaplot (eg GM) or from the thematically-neutral "troupe premise" to Protagonistic Play (dramatic need of a PC).Now go back to my matrix and continuum of Protagonistic Play way upthread.5e isn't to the far right of all 4 of those.  But its well right of center in each and the sum total of that is that "yes, you can get a level of Protagonistic Play out of 5e, but the system won't help you much and will actively fight you in a lot of ways."That shouldn't be controversial.  A system built with the above design conceits must be overcome to have Protagonistic Play be an outgrowth of table time (eg it doesn't support it and it works against it in many ways).  But you can surely get to the left of each of those 4 values that I composed above by fighting the system and integrating other stuff.</blockquote>

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