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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guest&nbsp; 85555" data-source="post: 8244617"><p>But this brings us right back to the modeling I was talking about. It didn't exist simply because you said so, or simply because you told the players it did. It was there as part of the model, prior to that. So while obviously you talking to the players is part of how players explore that model, there is a model that exists outside you and the players (the shaft's existence isn't dependent on  the conversation between you and the players: it is dependent on the model). Sure that map existed on a page. But that map could just as easily exist in a GM's mind , and the same level of objective exploration could take place</p></blockquote><p></p>