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What is the "role" in roleplaying
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6933734" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't think there's very much personality or individual motivation in the examples of play in Gygax's DMG. (Either the combat between parties A and B; or the exploration of the lost crypt, with the less-than-evocatively named "leader", "cleric", etc.)</p><p></p><p>Modlvay's examples in his Basic rulebook have a bit more dramatic life in them, but not a lot more. (I seem to remember Morgan Ironwolf retracting a threat to kill a prisoner - have I got that right? - but in Gygaxian terms that is part of playing alignment within the party, rather than personalities per se - though as I noted in my OP alignment can bleed into personality.) The party's treatment of the death of the thief (Black Dougal?) is pretty functional.</p><p></p><p>If you read Gygax's advice on preparing for an adventure, in the concluding pages of his PHB, it's pretty clear that he conceives of D&D as a strategy game.</p><p></p><p>The difference from a typical war or skirmish game, though, and even moreso from a board game, is that <em>the fiction matters to the resolution</em>. That's the truth in the otherwise slightly simplistic slogan "In a RPG you can try anything!"</p><p></p><p>Hence performing one's role/function isn't just about knowing the mechanics (though that's part of it - especially, in the history of D&D, if you're playing a spell user). It's also about having a good sense of the fiction and being able to put the fiction to work - whether via "creative casting", or clever negotiation (Gygax's DMG quantifies the effects of various offers, deals etc on reaction and loyalty checks), or avoiding pursuit, or other challenges that are thrown up by the game.</p><p></p><p>But, as I replied to Nagol, that is primarily what is going on in the examples of play in the classic game. That's also what seems to me to be going on in the example of play in the Introduction to the 5e Basic PDF, and to be what is evoked in the column on the right hand side of the same page:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The adventurers can solve puzzles, talk with other characters, battle fantastic monsters, and discover fabulous magic items and other treasure. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The DM creates adventures for the characters, who navigate its hazards and decide which paths to explore. . . . Will they walk across the dangerously weathered drawbridge? Tie themselves together with rope to minimize the chance that someone will fall if the drawbridge gives way? Or cast a spell to carry them over the chasm? . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Each monster defeated, each adventure completed, and each treasure recovered not only adds to the continuing story, but also</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">earns the adventurers new capabilities. . . . </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Sometimes an adventurer might come to a grisly end, torn apart by ferocious monsters or done in by a nefarious villain. Even so, the other adventurers can search for powerful magic to revive their fallen comrade . . . </p><p></p><p>To me that all looks like it's about function, not character personality or motivation (which seem to be subsumed into the idea of a GM creating an adventure with hazards and paths for the players to engage with) - though it doesn't have the same emphasis on "skilled play" as does Gygax's discussion.</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that there won't be "hamming it up", etc - but I think in the presentation of role as function the hamming it up is a <em>result</em> of roleplaying, not constitutive of it - you play your PC by way of action declarations aimed at meeting the challenges posed by the game, and in the course of doing that you ham up your PC because that's a more fun way to engage in action declarations.</p><p></p><p>There is no assumption (by me, or in general) that <em>function</em> = combat function. In the examples from Gygax, for instance, there is reference to a thief's function of pilfering treasure, a cleric's function of helpfing, a fighter's function of boldly leading, etc. And the examples I've mentioned in the Basic PDF are about the "exploration" pillar, not the combat pillar.</p><p></p><p>There's an assumption here, though, that good functional play is not memorable. But in my experience it often is - and part of remembering it also involves remembering what the players' character did, and hence what/who s/he was. For instance, when you get people to post about memories of "creative casting", they don't forget the class of the character because, in remembering what the situation was and what the spell was that was used, they also remember the details of the character.</p><p></p><p>As to whether a party played badly if they didn't "beat" the adventure - doesn't that depend on the dynamics and expectations of play? If you're playing a Gygaxian dungeon, then failing to beat the dungeon (eg all the PCs get killed, or none gets enough treasure to earn a level, etc) is playing badly. If, along the lines suggseted by [MENTION=56051]Raith5[/MENTION] upthread, you see roleplaying as being about the player pursuing character goals, then failing to achieve those goals might be a sign of bad play.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, if you think that the main point of RPGing is to create an entertaining and fun personality - as per the quotes upthread from the 2nd ed PHB - then you probably think that "beating" the dungeon, or achieving goals, is irrelevant.</p><p></p><p>These different approaches are what I am hoping the thread can explore.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6933734, member: 42582"] I don't think there's very much personality or individual motivation in the examples of play in Gygax's DMG. (Either the combat between parties A and B; or the exploration of the lost crypt, with the less-than-evocatively named "leader", "cleric", etc.) Modlvay's examples in his Basic rulebook have a bit more dramatic life in them, but not a lot more. (I seem to remember Morgan Ironwolf retracting a threat to kill a prisoner - have I got that right? - but in Gygaxian terms that is part of playing alignment within the party, rather than personalities per se - though as I noted in my OP alignment can bleed into personality.) The party's treatment of the death of the thief (Black Dougal?) is pretty functional. If you read Gygax's advice on preparing for an adventure, in the concluding pages of his PHB, it's pretty clear that he conceives of D&D as a strategy game. The difference from a typical war or skirmish game, though, and even moreso from a board game, is that [I]the fiction matters to the resolution[/I]. That's the truth in the otherwise slightly simplistic slogan "In a RPG you can try anything!" Hence performing one's role/function isn't just about knowing the mechanics (though that's part of it - especially, in the history of D&D, if you're playing a spell user). It's also about having a good sense of the fiction and being able to put the fiction to work - whether via "creative casting", or clever negotiation (Gygax's DMG quantifies the effects of various offers, deals etc on reaction and loyalty checks), or avoiding pursuit, or other challenges that are thrown up by the game. But, as I replied to Nagol, that is primarily what is going on in the examples of play in the classic game. That's also what seems to me to be going on in the example of play in the Introduction to the 5e Basic PDF, and to be what is evoked in the column on the right hand side of the same page: [indent]The adventurers can solve puzzles, talk with other characters, battle fantastic monsters, and discover fabulous magic items and other treasure. . . . The DM creates adventures for the characters, who navigate its hazards and decide which paths to explore. . . . Will they walk across the dangerously weathered drawbridge? Tie themselves together with rope to minimize the chance that someone will fall if the drawbridge gives way? Or cast a spell to carry them over the chasm? . . . Each monster defeated, each adventure completed, and each treasure recovered not only adds to the continuing story, but also earns the adventurers new capabilities. . . . Sometimes an adventurer might come to a grisly end, torn apart by ferocious monsters or done in by a nefarious villain. Even so, the other adventurers can search for powerful magic to revive their fallen comrade . . . [/indent] To me that all looks like it's about function, not character personality or motivation (which seem to be subsumed into the idea of a GM creating an adventure with hazards and paths for the players to engage with) - though it doesn't have the same emphasis on "skilled play" as does Gygax's discussion. That's not to say that there won't be "hamming it up", etc - but I think in the presentation of role as function the hamming it up is a [I]result[/I] of roleplaying, not constitutive of it - you play your PC by way of action declarations aimed at meeting the challenges posed by the game, and in the course of doing that you ham up your PC because that's a more fun way to engage in action declarations. There is no assumption (by me, or in general) that [I]function[/I] = combat function. In the examples from Gygax, for instance, there is reference to a thief's function of pilfering treasure, a cleric's function of helpfing, a fighter's function of boldly leading, etc. And the examples I've mentioned in the Basic PDF are about the "exploration" pillar, not the combat pillar. There's an assumption here, though, that good functional play is not memorable. But in my experience it often is - and part of remembering it also involves remembering what the players' character did, and hence what/who s/he was. For instance, when you get people to post about memories of "creative casting", they don't forget the class of the character because, in remembering what the situation was and what the spell was that was used, they also remember the details of the character. As to whether a party played badly if they didn't "beat" the adventure - doesn't that depend on the dynamics and expectations of play? If you're playing a Gygaxian dungeon, then failing to beat the dungeon (eg all the PCs get killed, or none gets enough treasure to earn a level, etc) is playing badly. If, along the lines suggseted by [MENTION=56051]Raith5[/MENTION] upthread, you see roleplaying as being about the player pursuing character goals, then failing to achieve those goals might be a sign of bad play. Conversely, if you think that the main point of RPGing is to create an entertaining and fun personality - as per the quotes upthread from the 2nd ed PHB - then you probably think that "beating" the dungeon, or achieving goals, is irrelevant. These different approaches are what I am hoping the thread can explore. [/QUOTE]
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