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What is the "role" in roleplaying
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6940000" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Yup!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Very much so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It finds its way into scenario framing ("A magic portal of Chaos in the bottom of an ancient is spewing aberrations from another world") and in some dungeon architecture components (like you mention).</p><p></p><p>On to <span style="font-size: 12px"><em><strong>Torchbearer </strong></em></span>(most of this will make sense to you but it is there for comparison and setting up my last quesion). I'm not going to go into the entirety of the system (there is a fair bit), but I'm going to highlight where its different (more robust with regard to the topic of this thread).</p><p></p><p>First off, this game is not about big damn heroes pursuing (and fulfilling) their romantic destiny to save the kingdom/world/celestial order. Its about grimdark adventurers trying to re-establish a toe-hold (or just pilfer a tattered tapestry or a golden cuff-link) in a desperate world where the wild, the monstrosities, and the ancient evils have pushed back against civilization's hubris...and cowed it. It is a game of struggle, desperation, flagging spirits, and ebbing torchlight. Gripping victory doesn't look like a haul of treasure. It looks like starving, angry souls who are happy that only one of them died from exhaustion and that they've plundered enough to pay down their Town debt, sponsor their next adventure, and earn a modicum of respect.</p><p></p><p>The game proceeds in roughly the same procedure paradigm (with very different resolution mechanics) as Moldvay Basic; Town Phase > Adventure Phase > Camp Phase (etc). Players still assume Mapper and Caller roles. PCs are built with several of the same components; Class, Ability Scores (different), Languages, Alignment (more thematic and nuanced but even pithier imo), Gear. </p><p></p><p>There are a few components of Moldvay's PCs and resolution mechanics that are (shallowly or broadly) analogous to Torchbearer's Circles, Resources, and Skills. However, I don't want to focus on those. </p><p></p><p>I want to hone in on the major areas of divergence that is relevant to this thread:</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>1) Beliefs, Goals, Instincts, Nature, and Traits</strong></p><p></p><p>These are (of course) the things that drive you on a fundamental level; your personality, your ethos, your ticks and scars, and the general disposition of your genetic and cultural stock.</p><p></p><p>Through the pursuit and invocation (and ultimately the evolution/change) of these facets of your character you (a) earn rewards/advancement, (b) complicate your life, (c) earn resources that get you out of those complications (or save you from others), or (d) lose yourself entirely.</p><p></p><p>Sounds like real life to me!</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>2) The Inventory/Encumbrance system</strong></p><p></p><p>The system is explicit, intuitive and just granular enough to keep overhead low but cognitive workload prominent in this oh so important part of the game; Gear/plunder management. Your body has slots, your sack/pack has slots, a pack carries more than a sack, stuff that goes in is in a particular order comes out in the same, if you burden yourself with a pack then you can't wear plate mail. These kinds of things.</p><p></p><p>You've got decisions to make. Their central to your survival and central to your prosperity (which are put at tension by the game's mechanics!)</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>3) The Condition track</strong></p><p></p><p>Its not easy to die or outright lose yourself, but it’s so very hard to get things done because everything is complicating your life; the environment, its denizens, your logistical issues...and finally, your psycholigical/physiological issues. You need to manage your wits, your camping, your supplies, and maybe your retreat in order to keep your character’s conditions from spiraling out of control (there are eight of them and 7 of them, Fresh brings a boon, they carry different problems...well, maybe 6...is "Dead" technically "a problem?"). But in order to make camp and do anything during the Camp Phase you need to spend "Checks" (earned when your Traits complicate your life). </p><p></p><p>The mechanics are so beautifully integrated with the fiction and they so intensively marry your character's disposition and personae to both your micro-status and your macro-outcomes that you can't help but feel (as a player) that all which comes to pass is a natural outgrowth of your PC inhabitation and attendant decision-making. Its hard, its a grind, but its rewarding as hell.</p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p>Now. The question is:</p><p></p><p>What do these two system's have to say about the nature of roleplaying and PC habitation and personae/disposition rendering as a priority of play? </p><p></p><p>It is trivial, intuitive and inferrable from the game text to play Moldvay Basic in something resembling pawn stance or utterly vanilla and cartoonishly flat tropes. Those two are all I have seen. </p><p></p><p>Torchbearer is impossible to play in this way. It won't work. Even if you tried (and why would you?), you would fail (because the tightly integrated systems push back so deeply against such an approach). Your personae/disposition will emerge, it will change, it will drive play, you will inhabit it.</p><p></p><p>Is Torchbearer, then, a more legitimate roleplaying game than Moldvay Basic? That question seems absurd to me to even ask, but given many of the replies I see in this thread, I would have to think that some would have to contort themselves significantly to maintain their positions on roleplaying while simultaneously making an equivalence between the two games.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6940000, member: 6696971"] Yup! Very much so. It finds its way into scenario framing ("A magic portal of Chaos in the bottom of an ancient is spewing aberrations from another world") and in some dungeon architecture components (like you mention). On to [SIZE=3][I][B]Torchbearer [/B][/I][/SIZE](most of this will make sense to you but it is there for comparison and setting up my last quesion). I'm not going to go into the entirety of the system (there is a fair bit), but I'm going to highlight where its different (more robust with regard to the topic of this thread). First off, this game is not about big damn heroes pursuing (and fulfilling) their romantic destiny to save the kingdom/world/celestial order. Its about grimdark adventurers trying to re-establish a toe-hold (or just pilfer a tattered tapestry or a golden cuff-link) in a desperate world where the wild, the monstrosities, and the ancient evils have pushed back against civilization's hubris...and cowed it. It is a game of struggle, desperation, flagging spirits, and ebbing torchlight. Gripping victory doesn't look like a haul of treasure. It looks like starving, angry souls who are happy that only one of them died from exhaustion and that they've plundered enough to pay down their Town debt, sponsor their next adventure, and earn a modicum of respect. The game proceeds in roughly the same procedure paradigm (with very different resolution mechanics) as Moldvay Basic; Town Phase > Adventure Phase > Camp Phase (etc). Players still assume Mapper and Caller roles. PCs are built with several of the same components; Class, Ability Scores (different), Languages, Alignment (more thematic and nuanced but even pithier imo), Gear. There are a few components of Moldvay's PCs and resolution mechanics that are (shallowly or broadly) analogous to Torchbearer's Circles, Resources, and Skills. However, I don't want to focus on those. I want to hone in on the major areas of divergence that is relevant to this thread: [B] 1) Beliefs, Goals, Instincts, Nature, and Traits[/B] These are (of course) the things that drive you on a fundamental level; your personality, your ethos, your ticks and scars, and the general disposition of your genetic and cultural stock. Through the pursuit and invocation (and ultimately the evolution/change) of these facets of your character you (a) earn rewards/advancement, (b) complicate your life, (c) earn resources that get you out of those complications (or save you from others), or (d) lose yourself entirely. Sounds like real life to me! [B] 2) The Inventory/Encumbrance system[/B] The system is explicit, intuitive and just granular enough to keep overhead low but cognitive workload prominent in this oh so important part of the game; Gear/plunder management. Your body has slots, your sack/pack has slots, a pack carries more than a sack, stuff that goes in is in a particular order comes out in the same, if you burden yourself with a pack then you can't wear plate mail. These kinds of things. You've got decisions to make. Their central to your survival and central to your prosperity (which are put at tension by the game's mechanics!) [B] 3) The Condition track[/B] Its not easy to die or outright lose yourself, but it’s so very hard to get things done because everything is complicating your life; the environment, its denizens, your logistical issues...and finally, your psycholigical/physiological issues. You need to manage your wits, your camping, your supplies, and maybe your retreat in order to keep your character’s conditions from spiraling out of control (there are eight of them and 7 of them, Fresh brings a boon, they carry different problems...well, maybe 6...is "Dead" technically "a problem?"). But in order to make camp and do anything during the Camp Phase you need to spend "Checks" (earned when your Traits complicate your life). The mechanics are so beautifully integrated with the fiction and they so intensively marry your character's disposition and personae to both your micro-status and your macro-outcomes that you can't help but feel (as a player) that all which comes to pass is a natural outgrowth of your PC inhabitation and attendant decision-making. Its hard, its a grind, but its rewarding as hell. [HR][/HR] Now. The question is: What do these two system's have to say about the nature of roleplaying and PC habitation and personae/disposition rendering as a priority of play? It is trivial, intuitive and inferrable from the game text to play Moldvay Basic in something resembling pawn stance or utterly vanilla and cartoonishly flat tropes. Those two are all I have seen. Torchbearer is impossible to play in this way. It won't work. Even if you tried (and why would you?), you would fail (because the tightly integrated systems push back so deeply against such an approach). Your personae/disposition will emerge, it will change, it will drive play, you will inhabit it. Is Torchbearer, then, a more legitimate roleplaying game than Moldvay Basic? That question seems absurd to me to even ask, but given many of the replies I see in this thread, I would have to think that some would have to contort themselves significantly to maintain their positions on roleplaying while simultaneously making an equivalence between the two games. [/QUOTE]
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