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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kozos" data-source="post: 8067023" data-attributes="member: 7025860">Hello. I joined the forum only to participate in the discussion of Level up 5e. I have always been in love with the fighter and the ranger and I love that especially the fighter is being discussed here so extensively. I have read the whole thread and many excellent opinions have been aired. I would like to add my own insight as well.First of all, I started playing dnd with 3.5, when 4th came out I switched to Adnd 2nd and then to 5e. The last year i have studied 4th a bit and I find many interesting design choices but many more that are difficult to stomach. Anyhow let us get back to the 5e fighter. My main issue is that until level 11 where the fighter gets the 3rd attack EVERYTHING they can do can be performed by another class with the addition of other stuff. Let me explain. Let us all assume the baseline fighter, what is the essence of a "well rounded specialist" as 5e likes to call them.They attack hard.They are tough.They are hard to hit.They attack several times.They push the limits of mundane to superhuman.Certainly one can name several other attributes of a fighter type but this is the basis of what any fighting machine should be capable of doing.But this is not the case.They don't attack that hard, almost every other class does the same of weapon dice + modifier whereas others get to add modifiers. The barbarian can add rage damage, the ranger can use hunter's mark and the rogue is expected to sneak attack every turn, the hexblade has a ton of tricks etc.They are tough-ish, sure. But the barbarian has a bigger hit die and potentially double that if in a rage. The paladin and the ranger also have the same hit die and have either superior heal mechanics or access to temporary hp sources.They are tough to hit. Well no, ac is relatively static and the fighter is one of the worse classes at increasing it. Compare this to the forge cleric, the bladesinger wizard (or any class in an edition where proficiency in arms and armour is trivialized), college of blades bards etc.They attack several times: Well not before level 11 (with the exception of action surge) something that the ranger the bard and the barbarian get much earlier even by level 3.They push the limits of mundane to superhuman. With the exception of action surge the monk, rogue and barbarian do it far more often and harder.My point is.I have played tons of 5e and every time i played a fighter every build besides a PAM/GWM or SS/CE battlemaster/samurai feels very weak and trivialized. And I blame this mostly on the 6-8 encounters per day assumption of 5e. Sure, in such a case a fighter can be potentially strong but almost noone plans adventures with this assumption in mind. Also I blame the grognards who insisted the fighter should have no active abilities and be the newbie class of 5e.I think the solution to the fighter's issues will come with a menu like system similar to the warlock's invocation so each one can be different, since no class has to meet such diverse source material mechanics. Speaking of source material, I think that we can spend days disagreeing on which fictional or historical character should be the basis for the fighter and while this discussion should inform our design I think it is a trap. We have fiction that describes high level characters, namely the dnd novels. A high level fighter should be able to do the stuff that Drizzt, Zaknafein and Bruenor do.</blockquote>

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