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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7324504" data-attributes="member: 42582">You're reading "solving puzzle" more narrowly than I intended it.Don't think crossword. Think here's a garden rake, a pot of glue and some silver foil - how would you use that to cross this 6' wide trench? The solutions are open-ended; but a big part of play is coming up with solutions - in the form of manipulating the fiction (by way of equipment and spells, as well as clever ideas for using whatever it is the GM describes).As to whether this is more important than subsequent D&D - I didn't say that, and didn't intend to imply it. What I said in the OP (and have reiterated a bit since) is that I think it's very clear what the GM's notes are for in that kind of play. They establish the framing for the "puzzle" (which includes the maze of the dungeon itself) and establish its parameters. Their finitude is a very important part of this - ie the dungeon is not a "living, breathing" world in the context of a particular episode of play.You can see this pretty clearly in Gygax's advice to players in his PHB (from pp 107, 109):First get in touch with all those who will be included in the adventure, or if all are not available, at least talk to the better players so that you will be able to set an objective for the adventure. Whether the purpose is so simple as to discover a flight of stairs to the next lowest unexplored level or so difficult as to find and destroy on altar to an alien god, some firm obiective should be established and then adhered to as strongly as possible. . . . A word about mapping is in order. A map is very important because it helps assure that the party will be able to return to the surface. Minor mistakes are not very important. It makes no difference if there is a 20' error somewhere as long as the chart allows the group to find its way out! As it is possible that one copy of the party's map might be destroyed by mishap or monster, the double map is a good plan whenever possible - although some players have sufficiently trained recall so as to be able to find their way back with but small difficulty, and these individuals are a great boon to the group. . . . Avoid unnecessary encounters. This advice usually means the difference between success and failure when it is followed intelligently. Your party has an objective, and wondering monsters are something which stand between them and it. The easiest way to overcome such difficulties is to avoid the interposing or trailing creature if at all possible.  . . . Run first and ask questions later. In the same vein, shun encounters with creatures found to be dwelling permanently in the dungeon (as far as you can tell, that is) unless such creatures are part of the set objective or the monster stands between the group and the goal it has set out to gain. Do not be sidetracked. A good referee will have many ways to distract an expedition, many things to draw attention, but ignore them if at all possible. The mappers must note all such things, and another expedition might be in order another day to investigate or destroy something or some monster, but always stay with what was planned if at all possible, and wait for another day to handle the other matters.This advice becomes pointless if the dungeon is changing dramatically in the timescale of PC expeditions - as under those circumstances the map becomes relatively pointless, notes as to future targets for expeditions become unhelpful, etc. A group can't follow Gygax's advice, for instance, if they can't reasonably rely upon the permanent dweller still being there when, in next week's session, they implement their new plan of going to find out what sort of treasure it might be guarding; and the, the week after that, implement their plan of going and obtaining said treasure.As expectations about the nature and scope of the gameworld change - as we get games like Runequest that emphasise verisimiltude over the artificial environment of the Gygaxian dungeon, as we get modules like Dragonlance, as we get settings like the Forgotten Realms - the setting is clearly no longer playing the sort of role Gygax envisages in the passages I've quoted. It's not a "maze" for the players to unravel and a set of problems for them to solve (with a principal focus on loot identification and extraction).This thread is asking - given that it's not those things, what is it for?</blockquote>

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