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What is *worldbuilding* for?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 7325831" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>Sure, but you're changing this slightly. Up-thread you were asking if the *point* of world-building was to present the players with the products of the GM's imaginations. I'd say no - at least not most of the time, and when it becomes that it is a rather narcissistic affair, with the GM as self-declared artiste and the players his or her captive audience. There are GMs out there like that, and perhaps <em>all </em>or most GMs have a twinge of that (in a similar sense that all/most teachers I've known like to pontificate), but it is more of a spectrum.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've addressed this already a couple times. It has to do with "otherness" and issues of power, certainty (or uncertainty), control, etc, and how these things affect play experience. There is a different quality to "otherness" if I (as a player) have more control or power within the setting. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You'll find no issue with me on this. I think both can be immersive. </p><p></p><p>That said, there's a difference between a player saying "I want my character to have a brother possessed by a balrog" and "I want to travel to Brokentop Mountain where the balrog lives." In the first, the player is creating their character's backstory; in the latter, they are dictating what exists in the world. And of course your mace example fits the latter.</p><p></p><p>Now don't get me wrong: I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you do, using your example of the mace. I just feel that the more the PC's relationship to the setting mirrors our relation to our own world, the more immersive it feels. As a general--but not absolute--rule. </p><p></p><p>(This may relate to GNS issues, where you seem to be emphasizing a more gamist approach, and I'm emphasizing a more simulationist-narrativist approach)</p><p></p><p>Disallowing players from controlling the setting does not make them passive or take away agency, in the same way that if I want brie, I can go to Whole Foods and buy it. But I cannot "roll" to see if it is in my fridge or not. It is either there or it isn't.</p><p></p><p>Your approach says that a PC can, essentially, roll to see if there is brie in the fridge. This is a kind of meta-approach that I feel detracts from immersion. And that might be the crux of my view: anything that pulls the player out of the character, threatens immersion. This is also why I was one of those folks that found 4E combat--which I enjoyed in and of itself--to be less immersive than other editions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't have a problem with generalizing in principle, but I find Manbearcat's generalization to be inaccurate and a bit strawmanish. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not quite. My point is that whether or not they world-build as a creative outlet in and of itself does not inherently equate with them using the game as a platform to share their product. It is correlation, but not causation. </p><p></p><p>This is a common debate tactic: make a generalization, tweak it slightly here and there to make it more extreme than it actually is, then present it in a negative light. That is what I saw in Manbearcat's nine points: a strawman. This pretty much addresses the rest of the specifics that you wrote about his post. I won't respond to each of your points, because my underlying issue with his nine points comes back to this. </p><p></p><p>But let's return to the forest rather than lose ourselves in the trees. All of this comes back to the issue of GM authority, how much is too much - and what effect different degrees of authority have on play experience. In this context, it is about world-building. But I see the primary tension between that of GM as creator-storyteller vs. GM as facilitator-referee. You can nitpick the framing or shift the contact, but it always comes back to some variation of that. </p><p></p><p>Now add in the meta-game issue which I mentioned above, and I think we come to crux of this debate: issues around GM authority, and what sort of impact meta-gaming has on play experience. Interesting questions!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 7325831, member: 59082"] Sure, but you're changing this slightly. Up-thread you were asking if the *point* of world-building was to present the players with the products of the GM's imaginations. I'd say no - at least not most of the time, and when it becomes that it is a rather narcissistic affair, with the GM as self-declared artiste and the players his or her captive audience. There are GMs out there like that, and perhaps [I]all [/I]or most GMs have a twinge of that (in a similar sense that all/most teachers I've known like to pontificate), but it is more of a spectrum. I've addressed this already a couple times. It has to do with "otherness" and issues of power, certainty (or uncertainty), control, etc, and how these things affect play experience. There is a different quality to "otherness" if I (as a player) have more control or power within the setting. You'll find no issue with me on this. I think both can be immersive. That said, there's a difference between a player saying "I want my character to have a brother possessed by a balrog" and "I want to travel to Brokentop Mountain where the balrog lives." In the first, the player is creating their character's backstory; in the latter, they are dictating what exists in the world. And of course your mace example fits the latter. Now don't get me wrong: I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you do, using your example of the mace. I just feel that the more the PC's relationship to the setting mirrors our relation to our own world, the more immersive it feels. As a general--but not absolute--rule. (This may relate to GNS issues, where you seem to be emphasizing a more gamist approach, and I'm emphasizing a more simulationist-narrativist approach) Disallowing players from controlling the setting does not make them passive or take away agency, in the same way that if I want brie, I can go to Whole Foods and buy it. But I cannot "roll" to see if it is in my fridge or not. It is either there or it isn't. Your approach says that a PC can, essentially, roll to see if there is brie in the fridge. This is a kind of meta-approach that I feel detracts from immersion. And that might be the crux of my view: anything that pulls the player out of the character, threatens immersion. This is also why I was one of those folks that found 4E combat--which I enjoyed in and of itself--to be less immersive than other editions. I don't have a problem with generalizing in principle, but I find Manbearcat's generalization to be inaccurate and a bit strawmanish. Not quite. My point is that whether or not they world-build as a creative outlet in and of itself does not inherently equate with them using the game as a platform to share their product. It is correlation, but not causation. This is a common debate tactic: make a generalization, tweak it slightly here and there to make it more extreme than it actually is, then present it in a negative light. That is what I saw in Manbearcat's nine points: a strawman. This pretty much addresses the rest of the specifics that you wrote about his post. I won't respond to each of your points, because my underlying issue with his nine points comes back to this. But let's return to the forest rather than lose ourselves in the trees. All of this comes back to the issue of GM authority, how much is too much - and what effect different degrees of authority have on play experience. In this context, it is about world-building. But I see the primary tension between that of GM as creator-storyteller vs. GM as facilitator-referee. You can nitpick the framing or shift the contact, but it always comes back to some variation of that. Now add in the meta-game issue which I mentioned above, and I think we come to crux of this debate: issues around GM authority, and what sort of impact meta-gaming has on play experience. Interesting questions! [/QUOTE]
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