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What is *worldbuilding* for?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7325989" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The nine points [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] wrote are an attempt to analyse all the things you refer to here: "power", "uncertainty", "control", "GM authority".</p><p></p><p>The uncertainty resides on the player side. It results from the GM having control of the backstory, which is not (fully) revealed to the players, but is (i) subject to change at any time by the GM, and (ii) available as a device for the GM to determine that declared actions fail without resort to the standard mechanics (eg set a difficulty, roll the dice).</p><p></p><p>If you think that's <em>not</em> where the uncertainty resides, then please elaborate.</p><p></p><p>(Another common source of uncertainy in RPGing: dice rolls. But this don't depend upon GM control over backstory, and so can't be the sort of uncertainty you are saying GM authority is in service of.)</p><p></p><p>Doesn't the former establish that the gameworld contains balrogs? And a brother? Why is this significantly different from geography?</p><p></p><p>This strikes me as confused.</p><p></p><p>One part of this apparent confusion is that you assert that the GM has power and control, yet deny that the player is passive or lacks agency. I don't understand how you square that circle.</p><p></p><p>The PC doesn't make any rolls (unless playing a dice-based gambling game in the fiction - that has been part of my RPGing, but normally is fairly marginal). The player makes a roll. RPGing is replete with players making rolls.</p><p></p><p>The player also declares an action. This is also very common in RPGing. The player doesn't know whether or not the action will succeed. This is also very common in RPGing. <em>Something</em> determines whether or not the action will succeed.</p><p></p><p>In Against the Giants, the attempt to find the hidden treasure depends (i) upon fictional positioning (ie the PC has to be in the right bit of the dungeon where the GM's notes record there is some hidden treasure) and (ii) upon a die roll (eg maybe there is a 1 in 6 chancer of finding it, as is the case for the invislbe iron box with the Hammer of Thunderbolts in it in room 21A of G2).</p><p></p><p>In the mace example, the attempt to find the mace depends (i) upon fictional positioning (ie the PC has to be in the right sort of place for a mace to be found, consistent with genre logic and established backstory - as Luke Crane puts it, on p 262 of the Burning Wheel Revised book, "A player cannot make a stand for beam weaponry in the Duke's toilet") and (ii) upon a die roll.</p><p></p><p>So where is the difference? Different systems allow different approaches to (ii), but these are largely orthogonal to the present point (eg in Against the Giants, that 1 in 6 roll is unmodified; in BW, the player has many resources to bring to bear; but a 3E player playing an updated version of G2 likewise will have player-side resources available to enhance a Spot check).</p><p></p><p>The real difference is in (i): what counts as the proper fictional positioning is different in the two approaches. In the first, the GM has sole control and keeps it secret whether or not the fictional positioning is sufficient for the roll to matter. In the second, the GM and player jointly establish the fictional positioniong, and its sufficiency for the roll (if it <em>is</em> sufficient) is known to the player.</p><p></p><p>(One consequence of this difference, which is a bit orthognal but in my view highly relevant to immersion: in the Against the Giants approach, the player can waste resources trying to succed at stage (ii) although the GM knows that the player has failed at (i) ie the fictional positioning is insufficient. In the mace approach, that can't happen. I think, based on experience, that the first approach breeds cautious play with somewhat detached players; the second breeds engaged play with players whose passions closely mirror those of their PCs.)</p><p></p><p>Which then brings us to the comparison to buying brie in the real world. That's a nonsense comparison, because the real world is not a fiction.</p><p></p><p>In the real world, I don't have "fictional positioning". And when I want to buy some brie, I'm not negotiating a fiction with other creative people.</p><p></p><p>The real world is governed by (complex, perhaps in some respects unknowable) causal processes.</p><p></p><p>The world of an RPG is <em>authored.</em> When a player says, "I look for the mace", this expresses a desire that the fiction contain one element (<em>PC finds mace</em>) rather than some other element (eg <em>PC fails to find mace</em>). Having the GM unilaterally and secretly deciding that the mace isn't there, and so can't be found no matter how good the roll, isn't like finding a fridge empty of brie. It's one participant affirming his/her conception of the fiction over another's expressed desire in respect of that fiction.</p><p></p><p>To me, that makes sense if the aim of play is for the players to try to bring their picture of the fiction into conformity with the GM's prior pictue. And that makes sense if it's a maze/puzzle game; but I really don't see any connection between this goal of play and <em>immersion</em>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7325989, member: 42582"] The nine points [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] wrote are an attempt to analyse all the things you refer to here: "power", "uncertainty", "control", "GM authority". The uncertainty resides on the player side. It results from the GM having control of the backstory, which is not (fully) revealed to the players, but is (i) subject to change at any time by the GM, and (ii) available as a device for the GM to determine that declared actions fail without resort to the standard mechanics (eg set a difficulty, roll the dice). If you think that's [I]not[/I] where the uncertainty resides, then please elaborate. (Another common source of uncertainy in RPGing: dice rolls. But this don't depend upon GM control over backstory, and so can't be the sort of uncertainty you are saying GM authority is in service of.) Doesn't the former establish that the gameworld contains balrogs? And a brother? Why is this significantly different from geography? This strikes me as confused. One part of this apparent confusion is that you assert that the GM has power and control, yet deny that the player is passive or lacks agency. I don't understand how you square that circle. The PC doesn't make any rolls (unless playing a dice-based gambling game in the fiction - that has been part of my RPGing, but normally is fairly marginal). The player makes a roll. RPGing is replete with players making rolls. The player also declares an action. This is also very common in RPGing. The player doesn't know whether or not the action will succeed. This is also very common in RPGing. [I]Something[/I] determines whether or not the action will succeed. In Against the Giants, the attempt to find the hidden treasure depends (i) upon fictional positioning (ie the PC has to be in the right bit of the dungeon where the GM's notes record there is some hidden treasure) and (ii) upon a die roll (eg maybe there is a 1 in 6 chancer of finding it, as is the case for the invislbe iron box with the Hammer of Thunderbolts in it in room 21A of G2). In the mace example, the attempt to find the mace depends (i) upon fictional positioning (ie the PC has to be in the right sort of place for a mace to be found, consistent with genre logic and established backstory - as Luke Crane puts it, on p 262 of the Burning Wheel Revised book, "A player cannot make a stand for beam weaponry in the Duke's toilet") and (ii) upon a die roll. So where is the difference? Different systems allow different approaches to (ii), but these are largely orthogonal to the present point (eg in Against the Giants, that 1 in 6 roll is unmodified; in BW, the player has many resources to bring to bear; but a 3E player playing an updated version of G2 likewise will have player-side resources available to enhance a Spot check). The real difference is in (i): what counts as the proper fictional positioning is different in the two approaches. In the first, the GM has sole control and keeps it secret whether or not the fictional positioning is sufficient for the roll to matter. In the second, the GM and player jointly establish the fictional positioniong, and its sufficiency for the roll (if it [I]is[/I] sufficient) is known to the player. (One consequence of this difference, which is a bit orthognal but in my view highly relevant to immersion: in the Against the Giants approach, the player can waste resources trying to succed at stage (ii) although the GM knows that the player has failed at (i) ie the fictional positioning is insufficient. In the mace approach, that can't happen. I think, based on experience, that the first approach breeds cautious play with somewhat detached players; the second breeds engaged play with players whose passions closely mirror those of their PCs.) Which then brings us to the comparison to buying brie in the real world. That's a nonsense comparison, because the real world is not a fiction. In the real world, I don't have "fictional positioning". And when I want to buy some brie, I'm not negotiating a fiction with other creative people. The real world is governed by (complex, perhaps in some respects unknowable) causal processes. The world of an RPG is [I]authored.[/I] When a player says, "I look for the mace", this expresses a desire that the fiction contain one element ([I]PC finds mace[/I]) rather than some other element (eg [I]PC fails to find mace[/I]). Having the GM unilaterally and secretly deciding that the mace isn't there, and so can't be found no matter how good the roll, isn't like finding a fridge empty of brie. It's one participant affirming his/her conception of the fiction over another's expressed desire in respect of that fiction. To me, that makes sense if the aim of play is for the players to try to bring their picture of the fiction into conformity with the GM's prior pictue. And that makes sense if it's a maze/puzzle game; but I really don't see any connection between this goal of play and [I]immersion[/I]. [/QUOTE]
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