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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7326304" data-attributes="member: 42582">I haven't been approaching this thread as a competition. I'm not avoiding admitting things. I have a conjecture - that there is a threshold of fictional scope/verisimilitude beyond which a &quot;living, breathing world&quot; is so much a product of GM judgement and presentation, and so cognitively inaccesible in its totality to the players, that it can no longer be the meaningful object of puzzle-solving.What's the nature of the puzzle you see in T1? I've told you what I think the puzzle is in B2. What is the puzzle in T1?Doesn't that tend to reinforce my point, though? That the content of the puzzle isn't leanrable by the players in the right way - after all, we don't think that beating a dungeon depends upon the GM roleplaying the walls, pits or otyughs as 3-dimensional beings.As written, it's mostly a puzzle (to beat the goblins and find the Hutakaans). I've not run it as such, but I suspect that if it is run as such it would fall over fairly easily, because some of the clues depend heavily on the PCs interacting in particular ways with particular people/places in ways that depend heavily upon sticking to a particular course of action.It does try to confine the action in various ways - but what happens if the players decide to try and raid Kelven or Threshold instead of sticking to the intended plot line? Or even just decide to become mercenaries in those towns, leaving the Hutakaans for someone else to investiage?In the dungeoneering context, those issues don't really arise.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7326304, member: 42582"] I haven't been approaching this thread as a competition. I'm not avoiding [I]admitting[/I] things. I have a conjecture - that there is a threshold of fictional scope/verisimilitude beyond which a "living, breathing world" is so much a product of GM judgement and presentation, and so cognitively inaccesible in its totality to the players, that it can no longer be the meaningful object of puzzle-solving. What's the nature of the puzzle you see in T1? I've told you what I think the puzzle is in B2. What is the puzzle in T1? Doesn't that tend to reinforce my point, though? That the content of the puzzle isn't leanrable by the players in the right way - after all, we don't think that beating a dungeon depends upon the GM roleplaying the walls, pits or otyughs as 3-dimensional beings. As written, it's mostly a puzzle (to beat the goblins and find the Hutakaans). I've not run it as such, but I suspect that if it is run as such it would fall over fairly easily, because some of the clues depend heavily on the PCs interacting in particular ways with particular people/places in ways that depend heavily upon sticking to a particular course of action. It does try to confine the action in various ways - but what happens if the players decide to try and raid Kelven or Threshold instead of sticking to the intended plot line? Or even just decide to become mercenaries in those towns, leaving the Hutakaans for someone else to investiage? In the dungeoneering context, those issues don't really arise. [/QUOTE]

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