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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7326327" data-attributes="member: 29398">Not entirely; as without a setting of some sort going in there's no backdrop to set the scene, as it were.  That's work the DM has to do ahead of time.Look at B10, for example.  The main map in that thing, backed by what's written in the module, is almost a whole setting unto itself - towns, roads, people, locations, adventure sites, villains, competing factions, side quests, etc.  That work has all been done for you; all you have to do is somehow narrate it to your players.I'll back this approach.Yes, as the player is in theory exploring the gameworld through the eyes of her PC.Of course.  And flavour can be subdivided further: flavour that has relevance to the PCs now or later (e.g. each day's weather, relevant whenever the PCs are a) outdoors or able to see outdoors, and b) might somehow be affected by it) and flavour that has no relevance to anything other than to help set the scene (e.g. the DM describing a harbour town the PCs are seeing for the first time might mention there's several dozen ships either docked or anchored-off to augment the atmosphere of this being a busy bustling place, even though the PCs are there for a reason completely unrelated to ships at all).First I'll note that even though it's the player doing the thinking, if she's looking through the eyes of her PC it's the game-world PC setting the game-world goal, not the player.And, here I can give an in-progress example from one of my own characters in a still-active game.She is from a Roman-Empire-based culture, and is a fully-accredited citizen of said realm (called Hestia).  Over the course of her rather long and world-spanning adventuring career she's come to realize a lot of distasteful things: that much of the world is in dire need of civilizing, Hestian style; that there's far too many bloody barbarians and monsters out there; and that her own Empire's government (a Senate-run republic at the moment, no Emperor for the last century or so) might not be quite up to the task.  She's done time in the Legions as a staff mage, and has (perhaps outdated) contacts in various parts of the military.So some years ago (real time) she decided that her goal after her adventuring career was done would be to get herself a seat on the Senate.  But since then she's changed a bit, and come to realize the Senate is but step one: we need to bring the true Empire back, with her or someone like her as Empress.Realistic?  In character, yes.Achievable?  Somewhere between no and extremely unlikely, though she has thought of a series of actions that might get her that Senate seat...she just needs to get the rest of the PCs (both active and inactive - a total of about 30 of them) to go along with her plan.  And good luck with that - she's not that well liked and for good in-character reason: she's the only true Lawful in a quite Chaotic group.  (just my luck - the one time I play a really Lawful character is the time most of the rest of 'em decide to play Chaotics!)But she's set a goal, and it has nothing to do with anything that's come up in play so far...well, other than a while back her ambition was set back a few steps when a party she was on the fringes of unintentionally destroyed part of Hestia City (cf. Rome) by flying an indestructible buried airship straight up through whatever was above... >facepalm< ...And note that what she's doing is all based on the gameworld the DM has given us.  She's not inventing Hestia, or the Senate, or the Legions - she-as-character (and thus I-as-player) is just taking what's there and working with it.i and iii are exactly the same: the person who wants to throw a rock has to first find one.  iv in the game world has a direct reflection in the real world: an un-numbered step wherein you-as-you make your own internal action declaration by deciding to throw a rock.  ii in the real world has to be reflected by another un-numbered element: the game mechanics of whatever dice need to be rolled (if any) to see where/how far the rock goes and what if anything of relevance it might hit.Your agency as meta-player, perhaps.  But your agency as PC is directly connected to the PC's ability to throw rocks.I disagree: unless the DM is a complete asshat (and for the purposes of these discussions let's ignore those, shall we) the player's agency comes not from meta-concerns but from what her PC does and the choices that PC makes, often in concert with the rest of the party.  If the party decides to leave town going south to the seaport instead of east to the mountains or west to where the Orcs are raiding then you've collectively exercised agency over the story to come; and if the DM hasn't designed the seaport yet (or even given it a second thought other than mentioning it in passing) your agency has forced her to do this also.In other words, it's not so much player agency as PC agency.But if you want meta-player agency over the actual design of the world and what's in it: no.  That's not a player's place unless the DM specifically allows it (and for minor stuff, IME most do).But I am, because it's through that agency that the player gets her own agency. In other words, you're talking meta where I'm talking in-character.  OK.Meta: it's the DM's world to design as she likes. End of story, drop the mike.In-character: it's the PC's right to - within the rules of the system in use - do anything he or she wants both to and within the game world including make a complete mess of it. (see above example re destroying part of Hestia City)If nothing else, the DM is providing the stage and scenery; the specifics of which will by default go a long way towards determining the type of story that gets told, if not necessarily any specifics of such.Except I'm not discovering that.  I as player have known it all along, as I wrote it into my goals and backstory way back at char-gen!  Not much of a reveal...What, that I don't want to be spoilered?  Come on, man!Given how many times you've posted how you so dislike fiction coming from pre-determined notes and-or being pre-authored by the DM I really have to challenge that last sentence.I think you worry about this more than anyone else I've ever encountered.Lanefan</blockquote>

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