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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7327289" data-attributes="member: 29398">Huh?How in blazes does the player of a PC who is enslaved by some other being get to in any way determine the details of what the enslaving being asks it to do?  That has to come from the enslaver, doesn't it?The only options an enslaved PC has are to do what it is told to do and do it well, or do what it is told to do but intentionally do it poorly or somehow corrupt the work, or to not do what it's told and resist.Tabletop no, but what about LARP?  In a LARP you would in fact pick up a rock...And from there it's an easy step to try and bring the LARP ideals to the tabletop; in that you do everything in character as far as possible except for the actual action and movement bits.  The main difference is that in a LARP you can bend down and pick up the rock you see where at a table you have to ask the DM whether there's a rock handy.  Seems simple enough to me. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Depending on the situation, that could be on the DM for not providing enough detail in narration; or it could be on the player for making assumptions about the situation instead of asking for clarification and-or more details first.Also, there is nothing that ever says the fiction has to develop in the way that the player (and PC) wants - and this is my beef with "say yes or roll the dice" when in a say-yes (i.e. no meaningful stakes) situation: the DM is forced by the rules to say yes to something even though for reasons of internal gameworld consistency or plot development she doesn't want to.  In other words, she's railroaded.When in roll-the-dice mode, she's railroaded by the dice.Or they just don't learn it and the game goes on without their knowing it. One invisible foe who can remain invisible while attacking (e.g. is under Improved Invisibility) can, if lucky, TPK a party.And whether or not you in particular care for classic dungeoneering, it's still a major part of the overall game and thus not to be so easily dismissed.Even though in the 4e modules I've run the foes often do carry interesting stuff in the form of their in-use weapons or armour* that's not listed under their treasure but still has value.  The modules (and the rules?  not sure on this) seem to think this all disappears somehow when the foe dies or is defeated.  Doesn't make sense, and blows away believability. (remember: I come from a gaming ethos where every shred of treasure we can carry out comes with us**, so yeah, I'd be looting those bodies every time even just for their weapons)* - I can dig up examples if needed.** - even though we don't use the xp-for-g.p. rule and haven't since before I started playing.For the pebble, sure.For the tree, if I knew ahead of time whether there's a tree there or not I'd narrate that; if I didn't, I'd roll.  Reason for this is that the presence/absense of a tree is far more important than that of a pebble in that a tree can be climbed (as in the example), set on fire as a distraction, used as a hiding place, etc.Fine, but in that case the DM should be doing the rolling.Yes it is different.A race between a PC and an NPC involves a non-static opponent and an in-doubt outcome...the same as if they were fighting each other rather than racing only the rules for fighting are many orders of magnitude more detailed.  This needs dice.A search for a map or a mace involves something static - the map or mace is where it is and the only doubt about the outcome is whether anyone finds it or not.  This can be done via meaningless dice rolled by the DM or by simple narration; except in the room where the item actually is in which case the dice roll isn't meaningless and the DM narrates to what it says (unless the item is obvious e.g. the mace is mounted over the fireplace, in which case the DM just narrates that).I've taken the liberty of inserting numbers in the quote just above, to break it out.1 is perfectly valid.  The notes/module/plan/ says the mace isn't here and thus it isn't going to be found here.  This is not railroading in the commonly-accepted sense of the term, no matter how many times you want to say that it is.2 and 3 are arguably railroading by any standard but more importantly are certainly examples of a DM playing in bad faith whether she's using prepared notes or not.  Omnipotent power brings with it a responsibility to use it in good faith.Ditto.  Monty Haul, here we come. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />If in doubt here and dice need to be rolled you as DM should be rolling them, because......if the player rolls and fails she knows she failed because of her own incompetence rather than being in the more realistic situation of doubt whether that was the cause or whether there's in fact nothing here to be found.  It gives the player (and thus the PC) knowledge she shouldn't have.Nothing can stop you doing this except a truly asshat DM.You get to play and interpret your character but it's the DM's job to present the situation your character might find itself in.And in all fairness nor should it.  There's 5 other players in that game, why should I be the special snowflake?Now if in character I can talk the rest of 'em into going along with what I have in mind (this'll be a bit down the road, we're up to our ears in backlogged tasks and unfinished business right now) then OK, we're on.  But it's on me to persuade them, not on the DM to proactively insert it.And if I do manage to somehow persuade them into this the DM's (and some of our own) very elaborate plots within plots we've been working through for years are all probably going to go out the window.  That said, I know from experience that he's quite capable of hitting the curveball. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Traditional's where it's at, baby! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Of course, as I know some players (often including me) can't be bothered to do 'em.The whole bit with the Senate ambition came about during play - it was never in her backstory.  In fact, she's one of those many characters for whom I didn't even bother figuring out her history until she'd survived a few adventures and looked like she was going to stick around awhile.Yes, hard APs are somewhat intended to be railroady but most of the time all involved know going in what they've signed up for and are cool with it.Lan-"I've baked homebrew APs into bigger campaigns as what amount to multi-adventure story arcs but have never run one stand-alone"-efan</blockquote>

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