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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7330386" data-attributes="member: 29398">OK to here.They were; and they were niche within the hobby then and - along with many similar systems published since - are niche within the hobby now.Hidden-design play has been the default (and majority) approach since Day 1.  As evidence one could argue that much of 4e's design was based on a perception that this was/is not the case - and look how well that turned out.There's two sources of data - neither perfect, but they're all we've got - to back this assertion.  First, the data that's posted on EnWorld now and then regarding what proportion of play comes from which different game systems in whatever online site(s) get surveyed.  Play in hidden-design systems - of which 5e is one and Pathfinder is another - hugely outnumbers play in open-design* systems.The second data source is not so much what RPG events get run at major cons but how popular they are and-or how easy/hard it is to find a seat in one.  I believe GenCon keeps data on such things; going just from memory Call of Cthulhu and old-school (0-1-2e) D&D are among the hardest to find a spot in, while 4e seats go begging.  But I could be wrong by now - last GenCon for me was 2016 and I've not seen any info from 2017 (haven't even looked for it, to be honest).* - open-design as a term seems like a good enough opposite to hidden-design for these purposes. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Though I'll not deny for a second that there was divergence almost immediately and that some of that divergence bent toward open-design systems, I'll posit that such divergence then merely established a niche within the hobby; and that - with the exception of a few years when 4e was a big thing and despite your best efforts here - those open-design systems have remained in that niche ever since.An all-hands con* - e.g. GenCon; I don't know if Australia has an equivalent - is the best place to get a sense of what's going on in both the mainstream and in (some of) the niches.  It can be a serious eye-opener. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />* - in contrast to a single-vendor con e.g. PaizoCon where it's all Paizo all the time and most other games aren't represented much at all.Lanefan</blockquote>

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