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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7334881" data-attributes="member: 6785785">I've pulled out a few items to focus upon.I won't say that I don't use McGuffin type elements from time to time in my game. They tend not to be as basic as finding ingredients or the like. I usually tie such quests more tightly to in game elements or events. Given that we're playing D&D in a fantasy world, I don't want to discard such item based quests, which are a big part of the genre expectations. However, I do think such quests function differently in a game as opposed to fiction. So I try to take that into consideration. I agree about player engagement, though. It's why much of my "GM backstory" actually draws upon a lot of elements created or introduced by my players. To compare this with the finding of the map example (removing the arbitrary choice of it being in the breadbin, see my comments below), what if the map is meant to be hard to find? Obviously, the breadbin makes no sense. But let's change it a bit....what if it was in the orc chief's treasure chest? That makes sense in the fiction, and makes the finding of the map more of a challenge for the PCs. Does this still violate your player attempting to determine the map in the first room of the complex that they enter? Or is the map just the maguffin itself? Is it just the impetus introduced to get the players to explore the complex? The more they explore, the greater the chance for some compelling aspect of gameplay to emerge. Doesn't finding the map immediately undo that? This all assumes importance being placed on the possession of the map (it's needed for some greater purpose, or it can lead to further adventure, or finding it is the current goal, etc.).Okay, I will admit to thinking the mention of the map being in the bread bin was arbitrary in the context of an example, not that you meant if the location of the map is arbitrary, then why not simply allow it to be where the player hoped.In the case of an arbitrary choice such as that, I would not in any way feel beholden to having the map be in the kitchen rather than the study. It's unimportant, and it may as well be in one place as another. I suppose that I'd question if the determination of such unimportant game elements really qualifies as player agency, though. If the map or its location were not arbitrary, but were instead planned as part of the framing of the challenge, would that be different in your eyes? That's all fine. I can understand your preference even if I don't share it in the same way. I suppose that part of the disconnect was that I was viewing the finding of the map as a challenge, rather than some arbitrary element, and so, to me it seems odd to have a player be able to introduce a solution to the problem through the mechanism of a simple Search/Perception check.</blockquote>

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