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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 7335765" data-attributes="member: 6698278">[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]So for a bit now you've been going on about heroic play and story driven play.&nbsp; I think some clarification is necessary.There is no conflict between heroic games and the following...1. Dying at first level on occasion.&nbsp; And honestly if you were doing it even once every five times you were an incompetent player with incompetent allies.&nbsp; Now it may be true that when you entered the game at the beginning that was your experience.&nbsp; We all start out as beginners.&nbsp; I never really experienced that as a player or DM.&nbsp; I admit my groups were paranoid, not afraid to run in the face of superior foes, and took great care in their preparations.2. Having a game where player character preparation is rewarded.&nbsp; I can remember reading the text for the Descent into the Depths module where Gygax discusses preparing pack mules because of their sure footing in the dangerous terrain.&nbsp; A group of intrepid adventurers were going into the underworld to smite an enemy that had plagued the surface world.&nbsp; It felt very heroic to me.&nbsp; It also felt &quot;realistic&quot; to be concerned about all these things.&nbsp; Realistic here in the context of a fantasy world with magic.3.&nbsp; Dungeon based adventures with lots of player skill.&nbsp; The flavor is what gives something it's heroic aspect.&nbsp; The story line behind the dungeon.&nbsp; The relationship to the villain.&nbsp; Exploring a lost tomb that you've discovered is exactly the sort of thing Indiana Jones does and I hardly think those movies lacked flavor or heroism.&nbsp; It's the fluff and backstory surrounding a dungeon that immerses the players.It almost seems like it's a variation of the Stormwind Fallacy from the DM's perspective.&nbsp; Caring about skill and prep in no way necessarily detracts from the story.&nbsp; Of course individual examples fall all over the place just as you'd expect from something not correlated.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 7335765, member: 6698278"] [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] So for a bit now you've been going on about heroic play and story driven play. I think some clarification is necessary. There is no conflict between heroic games and the following... 1. Dying at first level on occasion. And honestly if you were doing it even once every five times you were an incompetent player with incompetent allies. Now it may be true that when you entered the game at the beginning that was your experience. We all start out as beginners. I never really experienced that as a player or DM. I admit my groups were paranoid, not afraid to run in the face of superior foes, and took great care in their preparations. 2. Having a game where player character preparation is rewarded. I can remember reading the text for the Descent into the Depths module where Gygax discusses preparing pack mules because of their sure footing in the dangerous terrain. A group of intrepid adventurers were going into the underworld to smite an enemy that had plagued the surface world. It felt very heroic to me. It also felt "realistic" to be concerned about all these things. Realistic here in the context of a fantasy world with magic. 3. Dungeon based adventures with lots of player skill. The flavor is what gives something it's heroic aspect. The story line behind the dungeon. The relationship to the villain. Exploring a lost tomb that you've discovered is exactly the sort of thing Indiana Jones does and I hardly think those movies lacked flavor or heroism. It's the fluff and backstory surrounding a dungeon that immerses the players. It almost seems like it's a variation of the Stormwind Fallacy from the DM's perspective. Caring about skill and prep in no way necessarily detracts from the story. Of course individual examples fall all over the place just as you'd expect from something not correlated. [/QUOTE]

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