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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7335785" data-attributes="member: 29398">It's also possible some alternate roll-up methods had already been trial-ballooned in Dragon Magazine.  All before my time. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />It meshes if the players read into it that the characters they inhabit are going to have some sort of self-preservation instinct and thus use lots of caution etc.  But let's face it, in reality we all played gonzo for a while, and filled the graveyard in so doing. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />And you're right about a lot of the RP happening outside the structured dungeon, though a lot also happened between the PCs all the way along.  I think this comes from many of the early modules (say, pre-1983 or so) providing very few if any decent opportunities for RP with the dungeon inhabitants; this changed with DL, Ravenloft, and - of all things - a few Judges Guild modules.Interesting.In the game I play in we're up to about a 10th-level average at the moment, and in our year-end awards the only pure Fighter in the party was just voted most valuable character for the 5th time in 6 years, this time after a tiebreak with the pure Ranger!  Two non-caster* classes - what does that say?* - the Ranger's spell ability at 10th is still so trivial that it might as well not count.I disagree here.  Both the PH and DMG, for example, point out the need for tracking things like gear, arrows, encumbrance, and so forth; and of hiring porters or buying/renting pack mules to carry what you cannot.Huh?Somehow in there you jumped from logistics play to story-driven play.  They're not the same thing by any means, though one can tangentially influence the other. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />It can provide a home base for the party, but not much else.  That said, I think the assumption is that when a Fighter goes the stronghold route (or the Cleric builds her own temple, or whatever) that character is also pretty much retiring from adventuring.  Result: many characters IME put off this step until they think they've done their career, which might be several levels later.This looks like the start of a D&D-as-sport vs. D&D-as-war discussion; where I see it as war and you (going by what you've said here) see it as sport.  Fair enough. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So the players can author their own surprises?Isn't that kind of like wrapping your own birthday present?This sounds more like group storytelling on a D&D chassis than anything else.  It's neither sport nor war; it's more like two teams getting together before the game and deciding what the score will be, who'll get the goals, and whether the referee will be given the chance to send someone off - and then going out and playing it through to that result.Again, you're very lucky with your players that they don't abuse this authorial power.I've done that - the party rile up some powerful opponents somewhere and the next thing they know their home base is getting turned into Swiss cheese by the retaliation. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Lanefan</blockquote>

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