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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7336041" data-attributes="member: 42582">I agree with 2 and 3. Metagame controls aren't that important to me: Burning Wheel, 4e and Cortex+ Heroic all have the to a modest degree (but less than, say, OGL Conan); Classic Traveller and Rolemaster have them not at all.This relates to your 1, 2 and 3.2 and 3 are both (in my view) true.1 is not true. When I play an RPG I want to play my character and control my character's actions. Being able to shape the world as I play in it is not a big deal. What is a big deal is that the outcomes of my character's actions aren't settled by the GM's pre-authored setting.EDIT: And likewise when I'm GM, with appropriate changes of role: I like to see the players' declare actions for their character that engage with the unfolding fiction, and I don't want the outcomes of those actions to be pre-determined by me.As I hope this thread has made clear, there's a category of actions whose outcomes typically is not predetermined by GMs (eg a running race against a NPC - opposed checks to resolve; or a fight with an orc - use the combat mechanics) but another category of actions whose outcomes often are predetermined by a reasonable number of GMs (searching for a map in the study; finding a bribeable official; etc).Upthread I described this second category as ones in which the PC is learning about the world rather than changing it. If these correlate to actions in which the player learns about the GM's authorship decisions rather than contributes, via action declaration and resolution, to the unfolding shared fiction then I find that unsatisfying both as GM and as player.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7336041, member: 42582"] I agree with 2 and 3. Metagame controls aren't that important to me: Burning Wheel, 4e and Cortex+ Heroic all have the to a modest degree (but less than, say, OGL Conan); Classic Traveller and Rolemaster have them not at all. This relates to your 1, 2 and 3. 2 and 3 are both (in my view) true. 1 is not true. When I play an RPG I want to play my character and control my character's actions. [I]Being able to shape the world as I play in it[/I] is not a big deal. What is a big deal is that [I]the outcomes of my character's actions aren't settled by the GM's pre-authored setting[/I]. EDIT: And likewise when I'm GM, with appropriate changes of role: I like to see the players' declare actions for their character that engage with the unfolding fiction, and I don't want the outcomes of those actions to be pre-determined by me. As I hope this thread has made clear, there's a category of actions whose outcomes typically is not predetermined by GMs (eg a running race against a NPC - opposed checks to resolve; or a fight with an orc - use the combat mechanics) but another category of actions whose outcomes often are predetermined by a reasonable number of GMs (searching for a map in the study; finding a bribeable official; etc). Upthread I described this second category as ones in which the [I]PC[/I] is learning about the world rather than changing it. If these correlate to actions in which the player [I]learns about the GM's authorship decisions[/I] rather than [I]contributes, via action declaration and resolution, to the unfolding shared fiction[/I] then I find that unsatisfying both as GM and as player. [/QUOTE]

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