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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aenghus" data-source="post: 7340992" data-attributes="member: 2656">IMO this is the sort of large scale action which conventional procedural games can struggle with on both micro and macro levels. On the micro level the probabilities of repeated dice rolling can all but guarantee eventual failure if the GM is inclined to keep asking for rolls till a critical one fails. I have seen this happen more than once in real games, typically when the GM doesn't think the players can succeed or doesn't want them to succeed, or just doesn't understand probability. Very rarely I've seen players succeed by sheer awesome dicerolling despite such GM tactics, which in some cases is accepted bu the GM in good faith, but in others explodes the game in flames as the GM can't handle large PC-initiated changes in the setting.At the macro level I've seen GMs refuse point blank to adjudicate such actions. Sometimes the players can still sneak in the action by assembing all the parts without telling the GM what the overall plan is, or perhaps having a cover plan more acceptable to the GM. The results are similar to above with a bigger chance of GM bad will.In some cases the outcomes of the attempt prove to be unacceptable to the players, given the lack of a stakes negotiation phase. Depending on the level of unhappiness, there can be arguments, players leaving, the group breaking up, or player revolution with a new GM installed.Handled competently, yes. There plenty of examples in original games or even in printed works of similar situations handled incorrectly as outlined above, thus the number of gun-shy players who feel obliged to check for probability traps.I suspect player-based games with stake setting could find such problems much easier, with a few dice rolls or even just one if the king and government isn't important to the main player game goals. Stake setting allows the players and GM to agree as to outcomes, win or lose, and avoid most of the "unhappy player" issues above. With fewer dice rolls it's much easier to get the probabilities correct and give the players a transparent idea of their odds of success or failure, and what's likely to fall out either way.</blockquote>

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