Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 7341322" data-attributes="member: 957">I think the disconnect is that you take a reasonable position, differing player agency in differing systems and/or group dynamics, and then you make an flawed leap to how that is important to the merits of the game.&nbsp; People react to the second part as controversial and you misdirect that.And, this is a fair example.&nbsp; You throw this question out as a dropped mike moment, or maybe a dropped gauntlet.&nbsp; And yet, the question is truly completely irrelevant.If the joy that players in your game get comes from finding mundane maps hidden in mundane places then I don't think I want to play in your game.Yes, if there is a map hidden at spot X, then the players have ZERO agency to change that.&nbsp; There is no relevance to this point with regard to the players ability to be proactive creators of the fiction at large.&nbsp; Maybe they find the map by saying the right thing, exactly as you have complained.&nbsp; But maybe the story continues with the consequences of them not finding the map.&nbsp; Or, much more likely, the players come up with creative things their character can do to work out a solution.&nbsp; The challenge becomes a straw man because it is so arbitrary and lacking in context.&nbsp; so all I can really say is - This crap never happens in my game.&nbsp; If the constraints on how the map is located is that important to you then you are simply not grasping some idea.&nbsp; Yeah, it is either purely in my brain or on a piece of paper.&nbsp; But it doesn't even merit consideration.It comes back to good GMs making good, interesting, and fun canvases for the players to interact with.&nbsp; To sum up, in this very post you make reference to &quot;the GM presenting them with the products of his/her imagination&quot; and then you segue into agency.&nbsp; That is a mistake.&nbsp; In a good game, the players can be completely constrained by the character's capacity and yet have a great deal of agency because of the very nature of those character's capacity.&nbsp;&nbsp; They may not be able to define the location of the map itself, btu the products of my imagination are like a good plan on its first meeting with the enemy.&nbsp; The resulting experience for all is far greater than my imagination.&nbsp; Your responses keep rejecting and/or failing to observe this critically important distinction.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 7341322, member: 957"] I think the disconnect is that you take a reasonable position, differing player agency in differing systems and/or group dynamics, and then you make an flawed leap to how that is important to the merits of the game. People react to the second part as controversial and you misdirect that. And, this is a fair example. You throw this question out as a dropped mike moment, or maybe a dropped gauntlet. And yet, the question is truly completely irrelevant. If the joy that players in your game get comes from finding mundane maps hidden in mundane places then I don't think I want to play in your game. Yes, if there is a map hidden at spot X, then the players have ZERO agency to change that. There is no relevance to this point with regard to the players ability to be proactive creators of the fiction at large. Maybe they find the map by saying the right thing, exactly as you have complained. But maybe the story continues with the consequences of them not finding the map. Or, much more likely, the players come up with creative things their character can do to work out a solution. The challenge becomes a straw man because it is so arbitrary and lacking in context. so all I can really say is - This crap never happens in my game. If the constraints on how the map is located is that important to you then you are simply not grasping some idea. Yeah, it is either purely in my brain or on a piece of paper. But it doesn't even merit consideration. It comes back to good GMs making good, interesting, and fun canvases for the players to interact with. To sum up, in this very post you make reference to "the GM presenting them with the products of his/her imagination" and then you segue into agency. That is a mistake. In a good game, the players can be completely constrained by the character's capacity and yet have a great deal of agency because of the very nature of those character's capacity. They may not be able to define the location of the map itself, btu the products of my imagination are like a good plan on its first meeting with the enemy. The resulting experience for all is far greater than my imagination. Your responses keep rejecting and/or failing to observe this critically important distinction. [/QUOTE]

Verification