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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7343990" data-attributes="member: 6785785">The two things are only alike in certain ways, and you've focused on those, and I don't think they matter. There is a key difference in these two examples that I think is far more important. The orc has been introduced into the fiction. Not the idea of the orc, or its existence, but its actual presence as something that the PC knows is there before him. Here is the orc...I can talk to it, or hide from it, or attack it, or otherwise interact with it. The map has only been introduced conceptually, but its location has not been established. So in that case, it's more the PC interacting with the room to see if the map is there than it is the PC interacting with the map. An important distinction. And it's why this Map/Orc example is not very useful. I keep imagining the Council of Rivendell as an RPG scene and the player of Boromir, bored with all the talking and politicking yells that he attacks Sauron! He makes a perception check to find Sauron and succeeds! Sauron is there spying on them, and Boromir attacks! Wouldn't want to deny player agency in establishing the fiction!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7343990, member: 6785785"] The two things are only alike in certain ways, and you've focused on those, and I don't think they matter. There is a key difference in these two examples that I think is far more important. The orc has been introduced into the fiction. Not the idea of the orc, or its existence, but its actual presence as something that the PC knows is there before him. Here is the orc...I can talk to it, or hide from it, or attack it, or otherwise interact with it. The map has only been introduced conceptually, but its location has not been established. So in that case, it's more the PC interacting with the room to see if the map is there than it is the PC interacting with the map. An important distinction. And it's why this Map/Orc example is not very useful. I keep imagining the Council of Rivendell as an RPG scene and the player of Boromir, bored with all the talking and politicking yells that he attacks Sauron! He makes a perception check to find Sauron and succeeds! Sauron is there spying on them, and Boromir attacks! Wouldn't want to deny player agency in establishing the fiction! [/QUOTE]

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