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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7345758" data-attributes="member: 29398">And it's that infinte number of ways which gives them their agency.  I've finally, after all this, realized why what you're saying just doesn't compute to me on a basic level: you're defining "the fiction" in which players may/may not have agency differently than I am.There's two types of fiction in a typical RPG: First is the background or setting or game world or whatever term you want to give it, which ranges in scope from the overall setting choice or design all the way down to whether the treasure map is hidden in the study or the kitchen.  Constructing this (or even just deciding which canned setting to use), populating it, placing things within it, etc. etc. is the 'worldbuilding' you ask about in post 1.  In most cases players have very limited agency over any of this for offscreen stuff and pretty much none at all during the run of play...and as they don't have this agency I fail to see why you keep bringing it up.  This side of the fiction nearly all belongs to the DM; and as there's a lot of it, she keeps notes.Second is the players' characters themselves, and the ongoing story (i.e. the fiction) they generate as they move around within the setting, and interact with both the setting and each other.  Here in most cases* the players have all kinds of agency, starting with the 'fluff' and 'crunch' of the characters they create and continuing with the - as noted above - infinite number of run-of-play choices they can make once the puck is dropped and play begins.  And while the DM may have some ideas as to what story she'd like to see grow out of her game and can have input and influence in various ways, the end decisions here all rest with the players no matter what the DM does or says short of running a hard railroad.  This side of the fiction largely belongs to the players and this is where they have their agency over the shared fiction; though they still need a DM (it's what she's there for) to help bring it to life.That said, when the characters are only interacting with each other the DM doesn't really need to - and probably shouldn't - do anything.* - i.e. if you're not playing in a hard-edged AP, but most of the time all involved are cool with it or else they'd be playing something else.And without doubt it's the second type of fiction - the one the players hold the most agency over - that matters more when all is said and done.  Five years later the stories aren't likely to be about how well-drawn and pretty the DM's map of Spieadeia city was; hell, no.  The stories are going to be about brave Sir Grailen's thundering charge against the orcs at the gates; or when low-wisdom Drosa picked up that wand and tried it without IDing it first just to see what it did; or how fast that 2nd-level party fled when they suddenly realized they really couldn't take on that Frost Giant they'd been taunting....Lanefan</blockquote>

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