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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7346333" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, and I agree that things like 4e SCs and even the reaction/morale/loyalty rules of classic D&D are attempts to fill that gap. I think a LOT of 4e in its entirety can be interpreted as an attempt to fill that gap with at least strong hints and guidelines. I'd note that this was very much interpreted when 4e came out as a way to increase player agency within the game! In fact, at that time, the argument was pretty much "player agency is a bad thing, GMs should have absolute power and use it!" to paraphrase most of what was said on the GA forum at the 4e WotC boards. </p><p></p><p>I also agree that this was all a natural evolution of the movement of the game from dungeon maze puzzle to a vehicle for heroic action stories of a generalized nature. Once the actions of the PCs are played out on a wider stage things get VERY open-ended really fast. OD&D (and certainly 1e) can still handle the B2 hobgoblin scenario as you suggest, using the morale rules, but it still leaves a LOT of open territory.</p><p></p><p>Now, more 'classical' DMs might well take hints from their players and the sorts of equipment, backstory, previous activities, etc. in order to draw in elements that speak to those player's desires (and thus dramatic needs of their PCs which those desires may express). Of course this technique is not really defined or often well-understood in classic D&D play. I mean, I didn't understand it in any formal sense until 10 years ago, even after GMing all sorts of games for many years, and often using those techniques. </p><p></p><p>I think its hard to judge what people are doing in such situations. Imprecise language is used, and analysis is lacking. You are probably correct, along with [MENTION=6682826]CH[/MENTION]auchou, in trying to get everyone to clarify and get on a page about terminology and meta-theory, but it obviously won't happen. Still, I think most really successful GMs have had to learn to bend somehow and address the things that, at least their more demanding players, want.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7346333, member: 82106"] Yeah, and I agree that things like 4e SCs and even the reaction/morale/loyalty rules of classic D&D are attempts to fill that gap. I think a LOT of 4e in its entirety can be interpreted as an attempt to fill that gap with at least strong hints and guidelines. I'd note that this was very much interpreted when 4e came out as a way to increase player agency within the game! In fact, at that time, the argument was pretty much "player agency is a bad thing, GMs should have absolute power and use it!" to paraphrase most of what was said on the GA forum at the 4e WotC boards. I also agree that this was all a natural evolution of the movement of the game from dungeon maze puzzle to a vehicle for heroic action stories of a generalized nature. Once the actions of the PCs are played out on a wider stage things get VERY open-ended really fast. OD&D (and certainly 1e) can still handle the B2 hobgoblin scenario as you suggest, using the morale rules, but it still leaves a LOT of open territory. Now, more 'classical' DMs might well take hints from their players and the sorts of equipment, backstory, previous activities, etc. in order to draw in elements that speak to those player's desires (and thus dramatic needs of their PCs which those desires may express). Of course this technique is not really defined or often well-understood in classic D&D play. I mean, I didn't understand it in any formal sense until 10 years ago, even after GMing all sorts of games for many years, and often using those techniques. I think its hard to judge what people are doing in such situations. Imprecise language is used, and analysis is lacking. You are probably correct, along with [MENTION=6682826]CH[/MENTION]auchou, in trying to get everyone to clarify and get on a page about terminology and meta-theory, but it obviously won't happen. Still, I think most really successful GMs have had to learn to bend somehow and address the things that, at least their more demanding players, want. [/QUOTE]
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